DMR internet reliability re:drop-outs

[dwhit29689]

I use DMR to stay in touch with radio buddies in FL & IL. I will experience drop-outs occasionally however today 1130EST was
the worst I've ever had it. BER is good, I watch the repeater I'm using in NY and the repeater switch in Chicago my friend is using.
Drop-outs are so prevalent the conversation is too labored to continue. Is this the current state of internet reliability or is there a
solar storm occurring now? Solar Weather Live:

 

[Project25_MASTR]

It could be a number of things. Most DMR systems use UDP to transmit data between repeaters (or between repeaters and controllers). This is lightweight and great if you have the stability of a LAN network or dedicated leased circuit but can cause some issues (such as dropped packets) when working over the internet and half duplex wireless links especially when utilizing shared (and not dedicated) access technologies such as cable, DSL, and LTE. For example, my home internet drops in and out a lot during the summer as the coax heats up during the day and creates some issues on the Layer 1 aspect of the access technology (DOCSIS 3.0 in my case).

Unfortunately, amateur DMR systems aren't often built for the redundancy or dependability that you see in commercial application. Just part of the DMR craze and everything having to be connected to everything else over the internet via protocols which aren't fault tolerant or weren't designed for interconnection over a larger WAN network. As an example, most DMR controllers will talk to repeaters (in the same LAN) via UDP but talk to other controllers or the system core application server via TCP.

 

[jaspence]

The world wide net had considerable issues this past Saturday and there can be issues with the DMR equipment or the internet. It is a free hobby system supported by volunteers and repeater owners and there would be many complaints if someone suggested a charge to help improve it.

 

[N4KVE]

Anybody using a hot spot? In my experience with DMR, if someone sounds like garbage, they’re using a hot spot. OTOH, it can be a problem with the internet linking repeaters. But it’s rarely a problem with a radio connecting to a repeater.

 

[alcahuete]

A solar storm is not going to affect the DMR network.

 

[k6cpo]

A solar storm is not going to affect the DMR network.

Maybe not the hard-wired internet portion, but it can certainly affect the signal from a radio to a repeater. Anything going out over the air can be affected by a solar storm.

 

[R8000]

In my experience with DMR, if someone sounds like garbage, they’re using a hot spot. OTOH, it can be a problem with the internet linking repeaters. But it’s rarely a problem with a radio connecting to a repeater.

Wow. That's a lot of assumptions there.
You may want to re-word your reply.

For one, the Openspot devices are generally very decent. Yes, there are garbage ones out there for sure. But it is unfair to say they all suck.

Second, there are so many DMR repeaters kludged together with worn out analog radios with a MMDVM type of board hanging between it's not funny. If an old radio doesn't meet spec on analog, it isn't going to meet any spec on digital. So, there's a huge variable right at the repeater itself.

Third, hams are cheap. There's a good bet that tower site doesn't have a landline based ISP available (DSL,Cable or fiber). Even if it did, it's probably too expensive anyway. So, there's probably some low end cellular device or cheap point to point link going.

Fourth, that $20 unmanaged switch will probably auto negotiate you to half duplex and you;d never know it....ever. Causing all sorts of problems when streaming audio/video..etc. Web surfing would probably never show any issues. Using a managed switch is a must for streaming services so you can be darn sure you are connected at the speed you need to be and full duplex.

Fifth, That $30 router is probably barely able to handle streaming services. I found the gamer grade consumer routers to be a bare minimum for home use. Yea, they are $120 but you won't be replacing it when wi-fi dies in two years and will handle any streaming you throw at it. If someone has the skills to handle commercial/enterprise networking gear, even better.

Sixth, some ISP's are better than others. If the ISP sucks, then you're screwed until another one is chosen.

So, my point is the entire pipe from one radio to the other has to be spot on. If there's a shady piece of equipment in the way, then the rest of the pipe will suffer. The fun part is finding what piece is the culprit. There's advanced networking products out there that will tell you exactly whats wrong, but is out of the comfort zone for *most* hams. If the shady device belongs to an ISP 3 states away, then you are rather stuck until the net re routes your link another direction. When using the internet to link things, you are at the mercy of the net with no control outside of your home.

 

[jaspence]

Don't all hotspots use the internet, K4NVE? Rarely is my local repeater (about 5 miles LOS) any better since both signals end up on the same internet.

 

[N4KVE]

Around here the majority of DMR repeaters are not connected on the internet. And people here don’t use hot spots because there are five ham DMR repeaters locally. So most of us talk radio to repeater to radio. And everyone sounds great. There is one guy GGI who has a system connected to everything, & that’s where people sound like crap. Hotspots, Brandmeister, & even an analog network hooked into his DMR empire. We hear people who live 100 miles from a repeater here on that one repeater. Thank God he got rid of the analog system hookup. People using analog radios sounded so bad I had to remove the channel from my scan list. Sure, I understand, the use of the internet, or wireless modems at the tower site greatly increases the footprint of coverage, but it also dilutes the quality of the voice you will hear.

 

[dwhit29689]

Thank you gentlemen for the replies. I gather the service is not going to improve.
For what it's worth I'm using RF to a repeater 12 miles from me in NYS. This repeater is an MMDVM unit.
The ChicagoLand DMR control center switch says everything is good but I don't see statistics. I assume that switch
is using quality equipment and managed by good people as I've had some interface with them. The repeater in rural Illinois my friend is accessing shows intermittent drops at a lower rate than the MMDVM by me. This repeater is a Motorola Brandmeister connection and we rarely have an issue with it. I could see where a nuclear exchange would affect internet connections but this connection today I would call it about 30 to 50 percent missing data. The MMDVM actually shows disconnects from Illinois. If I had to depend on radio/DMR I'd give it up.
I have a ZUMspot I rarely use as internet service in my FL community has always been miserable. I don't even try it when visiting in NYS.

 

[alcahuete]

Maybe not the hard-wired internet portion, but it can certainly affect the signal from a radio to a repeater. Anything going out over the air can be affected by a solar storm.

Eh. Marginally so, if anything on 2m and up.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Fifth, That $30 router is probably barely able to handle streaming services. I found the gamer grade consumer routers to be a bare minimum for home use. Yea, they are $120 but you won't be replacing it when wi-fi dies in two years and will handle any streaming you throw at it. If someone has the skills to handle commercial/enterprise networking gear, even better.

In all seriousness, I've been running a MARC connected repeater off a $30 Mikrotik since 2014. Haven't had any issues with it since I set it up (aside from the WISP who backhauls it for me not having fault tolerant routing in place...he's also running Mikrotik for all of his routers) but those who have never dealt with Mikrotik's RouterOS or enterprise grade routing platforms...not for the faint of heart and one really needs to understand the underlaying OSI model to really understand what's going on with the networking segment.

 

[AK9R]

For one...

Second...

Third...

Fourth...

Fifth...

Sixth...

So, my point is the entire pipe from one radio to the other has to be spot on. If there's a shady piece of equipment in the way, then the rest of the pipe will suffer.

The next time an amateur radio emcomm guy tells me that they are going to start using the digital voice protocol du jour to communicate over a wide area, I may have to refer them to your post.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The next time an amateur radio emcomm guy tells me that they are going to start using the digital voice protocol du jour to communicate over a wide area, I may have to refer them to your post.

If they are willing to build a fault tolerant system using either a properly routed PtP wireless system or NBIP solutions, it should really be much of an issue as this allows them to control the entire datapath and if there is a failure provides the opportunity to asses and learn from why the failure occurred, what services were affected, etc. That being said, most simply do not want to do the work. At most throw up a AREDN system with multiple hops and try and diagnose why there is extremely high latency and low throughput...

 

[nd5y]

Anything going out over the air can be affected by a solar storm.

Not line of sight paths like a VHF/UHF repeater.

 

[jeepsandradios]

I have been in over a dozen RF shelters over the last 2 months. Every DMR Amateurs' repeater I have seen in them has a cradlepoint or other branded hot spot sitting on top of the XPR. Half the sites have less than 1 bar on the devise for signal. One site as soon as the door closes it goes to OOR and back and forth. Unless there is a true ISP connection via hardwire I wouldn't trust many of them... site from last week....BTW no verizon in the shelter at all, and ATT/FN has 1 bar....

 

[jeepsandradios]

Third, hams are cheap. There's a good bet that tower site doesn't have a landline based ISP available (DSL,Cable or fiber). Even if it did, it's probably too expensive anyway. So, there's probably some low end cellular device or cheap point to point link going.

Fourth, that $20 unmanaged switch will probably auto negotiate you to half duplex and you;d never know it....ever. Causing all sorts of problems when streaming audio/video..etc. Web surfing would probably never show any issues. Using a managed switch is a must for streaming services so you can be darn sure you are connected at the speed you need to be and full duplex.

Fifth, That $30 router is probably barely able to handle streaming services. I found the gamer grade consumer routers to be a bare minimum for home use. Yea, they are $120 but you won't be replacing it when wi-fi dies in two years and will handle any streaming you throw at it. If someone has the skills to handle commercial/enterprise networking gear, even better.

Exactly my point.... We wont even get into the crappy RF cables and all the rest in these sites.....and they wonder why they get thrown out of the tower sites...BTW...R56....not even on 1 site i was in....

 

[dwhit29689]

I see I should feel good about the lousy connection. Better than having nothing at all. It's that or return to...oh no, I can't do that.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I have been in over a dozen RF shelters over the last 2 months. Every DMR Amateurs' repeater I have seen in them has a cradlepoint or other branded hot spot sitting on top of the XPR. Half the sites have less than 1 bar on the devise for signal. One site as soon as the door closes it goes to OOR and back and forth. Unless there is a true ISP connection via hardwire I wouldn't trust many of them... site from last week....BTW no verizon in the shelter at all, and ATT/FN has 1 bar....

View attachment 124627

We had interesting design restraint that we haven't seen in quite a few years...requirement for all critical, time sensitive data (i.e. radio traffic) be routed over T1's due to inability to construct cost effective microwave solutions and it being the only solution available at one site. I know the quote for point to point on T1 was overall $100 more a month compared to dual T1 based DIA's (and I'm running encrypted GRE tunnels between). Still that's almost $350 per month per site and that was the cheapest connection I could obtain that met the throughput requirements at the time (it's a three channel Connect Plus system...uses 86-124 kbps full time).

 

[Thorndike113]

Sixth, some ISP's are better than others. If the ISP sucks, then you're screwed until another one is chosen.

You are not kidding. We have had DSL mostly, upgraded (or should I say downgraded) to cable, then went back to DSL and now have fiber.
I have known a lot of hams to hook up to cable internet at their repeater sites and I can tell you, cable sucks. I have heard the same complaints from others when it comes to service cutting out on cable. Out in the rurals, unless you are lucky enough to have fiber running down your road like I do, you either get DSL or cable. When cable works, it works, but, the key words here are "when it works". When we had cable, it dropped out quite often. It got so bad that we didn't even have it a year and we went back to DSL which was way more consistent but a little slower. With the influx of internet based devices in this house recently, we had to upgrade so we are paying $50 a month for 100MB fiber. Works perfect for what we use and works beautifully with my hotspot.