DMR TIII Network 13

[gary123]

I have tried the LCN finder and get nothing. Im going to give it another try tomorow when im back in that area.

If there are any settings or DSD changes anyone wants me to try i can give it a shot.

 

[slicerwizard]

I've fine combed Internet and only reference to DFA are Nexedge Generation 2. So I will assume this system works as old Motorola, new Tetra and new DMR TierIII that it uses a base frequency and channel numbers are counted upwards from that frequency and the control channel only sends out channel numbers, no frequencies. And then the DSDPlus.frequency file are very much in use to display the correct frequencies in DSD+ that relates to the channel numbers.

Well, then you assume wrong. DFA means that the system supplies the actual TX and RX frequencies. They're right there in post #53.

Unidens DMR scanners only go by channel numbers that are programmed next to a frequency and that frequency are used by the scanner, whatever that frequency might be. To be able to program a Uniden scanner one have to correctly link a channel number, LCN, to a frequency and either need to use LCN finder or have the frequencyfile in DSD+ correctly setup to get any kind of helpful info from that program.

The channel numbers and frequencies found so far doesn't match.

/Ubbe

You have to have the frequency file set up to get info? The frequency file is the info. You had to have the info first in order to add it to the frequency file!

 

[slicerwizard]

I have tried the LCN finder and get nothing. Im going to give it another try tomorow when im back in that area.

It's quite possible that your scanner can't handle the system. And there should be no need for an LCN "finder" as the system broadcasts the LCN/frequency relationships. Like a P25 system, one should only need to program the control channels. If your scanner doesn't offer that option, it likely doesn't understand the system.

If there are any settings or DSD changes anyone wants me to try i can give it a shot.

You can add the channel info from post #53 to the frequencies file if you want DSD+ to follow voice traffic, but that's all.

 

[gary123]

The work in the area is going to be done early so I reprogrammed the scanner to the discoverd LCNs and let it run. The scanner is tracking the single TG and 'private calls' properly

NET13 site 04 Baden (MRC Communications)
422.775000 LCN = 1325 CC= 0
422.900000 LCN = 1410 CC= 0

 

[slicerwizard]

You can add the channel info from post #53 to the frequencies file if you want DSD+ to follow voice traffic, but that's all.

Correction - I just tried it on a similar site here and DSD+ follows voice calls even without data in the .frequencies file. It pretty much acts like it does with a P25 control channel - just tune to the CC and off it goes.

 

[Ubbe]

Is this DFA for DMR the answer from Hytera to Motorolas RAS, to lock out any competitors from selling equipment into the system?

When the CC sends the DFA frequency it doesn't send any channel number, what's the point, and it's only showing, and with bogus values, because the normal DSD+ cannot handle it and you have to use the fastlane pay version from dec 2018 to be able to handle it correctly?

Upman implied that their scanners aren't really up to date about DFA and need debug logs from those system to figure out the protocol.
But Gary's scanner still follows the TG calls and private calls in the system. If a scanner works properly it ignores any voice channels and LCN programmed in the system, only the CC channels are used? Greg could delete any LCN info and voice frequencies and only track the system using CC, as it seems to track the calls as it is programmed now?

Could DFA radios be backward compatible, and some sites use LCN and others DFA in the same system that makes mapping out the system a bit more difficult?

/Ubbe

 

[slicerwizard]

Is this DFA for DMR the answer from Hytera to Motorolas RAS, to lock out any competitors from selling equipment into the system?

What? No - it's part of the DMR TIII Trunking standard...

When the CC sends the DFA frequency it doesn't send any channel number, what's the point, and it's only showing, and with bogus values,

What? DSD+ is displaying bogus values? How would you know? So this data, directly off the control channel, is bogus?

+DMR slot1 BS DATA DCC=0 MBC Tier III PC Grant/LateEntry Tgt=450-21-350 Src=450-21-372 ch=510 TX=423.162500 RX=428.162500 DCC=0

because the normal DSD+ cannot handle it and you have to use the fastlane pay version from dec 2018 to be able to handle it correctly?

I can't figure out what point you're trying to make here.

Upman implied that their scanners aren't really up to date about DFA and need debug logs from those system to figure out the protocol.

Plenty of NEXEDGE and TIII DFA traffic here...

But Gary's scanner still follows the TG calls and private calls in the system. If a scanner works properly it ignores any voice channels and LCN programmed in the system, only the CC channels are used? Greg could delete any LCN info and voice frequencies and only track the system using CC, as it seems to track the calls as it is programmed now?

His scanner works because he added the relationships between LCNs and frequencies. If the scanner was fully DFA-compatible, he wouldn't need to.

Could DFA radios be backward compatible, and some sites use LCN and others DFA in the same system that makes mapping out the system a bit more difficult?

Every modern NEXEDGE and TIII radio is DFA and non-DFA capable, so they're already backward compatible. It's up to the system operators to choose DFA or non-DFA control channel messages.


Pic: DSD+ getting slot/channel number and TX/RX frequencies from the control channel.

 

[Ubbe]

the normal DSD+ cannot handle it and you have to use the fastlane pay version from dec 2018 to be able to handle it correctly?

I can't figure out what point you're trying to make here.

https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/dsd-fastlane-2-155.380475/post-3036347

dec 2018
DSD+ 2.155

Fixed D-Star header decoding bug

TIII DFA (direct frequency access) support added

NEXEDGE DFA support added

Resolved signal polarity issue

Some DSDPlus.P25data file issues resolved

/Ubbe

 

[gary123]

The TG I have heard is 5047353. I havnet figured out what or who they are yet.

 

[mbstone99]

The site listed in the DB 410.0125 I believe from one of the threads this was said to be somewhere in King City if I remember correctly..

But these two are reporting the same net/site (453.4875 & 462.1125) but is listed as the site being at 77 Davisville in Toronto.

I am confused about this, is it in Toronto or KC or are these somehow two different sites?

Matt

 

[mbstone99]

This is also a map of what I believe is this system from Signal Wireless' web page.

http://www.signalwireless.ca/images/map.jpg

Matt

 

[slicerwizard]

The site listed in the DB 410.0125 I believe from one of the threads this was said to be somewhere in King City if I remember correctly..

But these two are reporting the same net/site (453.4875 & 462.1125) but is listed as the site being at 77 Davisville in Toronto.

I am confused about this, is it in Toronto or KC or are these somehow two different sites?

Matt

Why can't they be separate networks/sites?

 

[gary123]

Slicer is right sometimes people just pick a SID out of a hat and use that. Especially with a small stand alone system of 1 site/building.

 

[GTR8000]

Net 13 seems to be very popular, so much for that number being unlucky. I've got two unrelated DMR TIII Net 13 systems in NY, as well as a NEXEDGE 4800 Net 13 system for good measure.

To add to the confusion, DSD+ and Uniden scanners seem to differ in their interpretation of the Net ID. My memory is fuzzy, but I believe one displays it as 12 while the other displays it as 13. I gave up trying to figure it out, seems that different standards are followed depending on what software or hardware you're using.

 

[DaveH]

So the RR DB name for the system in question is "Network 13"....

Dave

 

[gary123]

I suggest it be called Signalwireless for now. All the sites seem to fall into the map posted in #71.

 

[mciupa]

I suggest it be called Signalwireless for now. All the sites seem to fall into the map posted in #71.

I think I agree.

 

[slicerwizard]

Net 13 seems to be very popular

Defaults usually are.

To add to the confusion, DSD+ and Uniden scanners seem to differ in their interpretation of the Net ID. My memory is fuzzy, but I believe one displays it as 12 while the other displays it as 13. I gave up trying to figure it out, seems that different standards are followed depending on what software or hardware you're using.

When the default network ID is 13, it's blindingly obvious whether all of these systems are actually using network ID 12 or 13. Hasn't stopped scanner manufacturers from getting it wrong though. And once they get it wrong, they won't fix it. Same as multiplying Motorola talkgroups by 16 for no good reason - it's a permanent fixture on the scanner landscape.

 

[mbstone99]

I think I agree.

Signal Advantage
Signal Wireless operates a wide area digital 2-way radio network in Central and Southern Ontario. We are also partnered with adjoining Hytera dealers and operate an extended Fastnet network in the region. We offer flat rate voice services with a choice of Signal Wireless coverage with our Signal Advantage rates, or with extended coverage through access to the Fastnet network.

Affordable subscriber radios and flat rate airtime plans are available, along with optional GPS tracking services through our ONGPS.ca web portal.

This is from Signal Wireless' web page.. if you go to Fastnet's web page they have the same coverage map with Signal and Hytera listed under it.. so maybe this is network is called Fastnet?

Powered by Hytera, the FastNet™ Canada networks provide unparalleled, instant communication between your workers, resulting in a significant boost in productivity

That is from Fastnet's web page.

Matt

 

[gary123]

The FastNet name sounds good to me. The system does not appear to have many users. I have heard only 2 active so far. Both seem to be some sort of transportation service. They are not active enough for being cabs. I suspect maybe a limo service? One unit was at Pearson. All comms seem to be scheduled pickups and in the Fergus, Authur area.

TG 5046379 is active on Baden

And another user that appears to be all Icall comms is using
Id 5047123 - dispatch
5047127
5047132
5047134
5047136
5047137
5047138
5047143