nd5y
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DMR Unknown Talkgroups
- Thread starter jtech48
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N5AMS
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I was thinking that but wasn't confident now I'm wondering if they have a con+ system as well I'll check that list later thanks
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Is there a way to put a marker in the Database that would indicate that there are Unknown/Unconfirmed Talkgroups in the Wiki (near where one would look in checking talkgroup names), that would go for making the Wiki Less obscure (it's obscure enough that people that have been scanning since the mid 90s didn't think to look there for information worth entering into the radios, not just historical or system design background, and frankly a number of systems have empty Wikis and a number of databases have entries of talkgroup names being "Unknown") And some indicator to look in the Wiki because information is available there would serve as both a reminder and attention caller, but also save constant wild goose chases for wiki's that have no data, but someone saw the FCC license and wanted to be first to put the info up so just listed off the sites and posted the info to the database with no other information other than DMR (based on the FCC license, don't even have to listen to it) and the list of frequencies with a name.
Frankly the database is subject to change as agencies and companies upgrade change and evolve, so the Database too is a work in progress and I understand the want for complete information so the database access can be sold to people paying premium prices based on the work of uncompensated members providing the info; but despite as annoying as getting an unknown is (or even more entertaining systems that are and always have been 100% ENC having all the TGs ID'ed); the fact that the best information someone has is put into a single central location that is where people turn to, then allows people to tune in and build off of that instead of having to reinvent the wheel, that information is centrally placed for the next person to come along and develop and improve. So when someone is trying to figure out if a channel is maintenance or security, because when they monitor there's only locations given; they can share that so the next person interested in that system and looks to and finds it in the database and is unaware of or doesn't remember to check the Wiki (or the 1st person was adding to the DB and had one unknown and forgot they could put that in the Wiki), and isn't taking the time to search the Local forum, DSD form, Whistler forum, Software forum, and digital voice forum before putting the system in and turning the radio on; would both know of what info is needed and go into it with some understanding of what is there already making it easier and faster for them to add information to develop a stronger database.
As a user of the database, database contributor, forum member, former feed provider, contributor to the regular wiki (not the wiki that you go into the database then find the little button and see if something is there, they don't seem to be connected making "check the wiki" all the more complicated); for me the simplest solution would be a checkbox next to each TG that added a ? before the TG name so we would know it was unconfirmed and the TG name could be filled out with whatever info someone had. Then the next person can come by later confirm it and remove the ? by unchecking the box and editing the name as needed.
Which I understand is simpler to explain than to be implemented and acknowledging the Wiki is not something that automatically comes to mind looking at the DB may have upset the person who would be coding that, and that there are implications to be considered as far as potential future upgrades to the software running the DB; but the end goal is to make it easier to collaborate in order to get the DB as complete and accurate as possible (my hypo before not being solved by putting one the other or security/maintenance because then it's just misinformation and misleading and making it so it's not something that others will look at as knowing it needs more attention); which as the DB access is being sold to scanner users for programming purposes based on the comprehensive, accurate information we assemble for free; at least making it easier for us to assemble that would help improve the quantity and quality of the information in the DB would then make the DB more marketable to people considering premium access.
Frankly the database is subject to change as agencies and companies upgrade change and evolve, so the Database too is a work in progress and I understand the want for complete information so the database access can be sold to people paying premium prices based on the work of uncompensated members providing the info; but despite as annoying as getting an unknown is (or even more entertaining systems that are and always have been 100% ENC having all the TGs ID'ed); the fact that the best information someone has is put into a single central location that is where people turn to, then allows people to tune in and build off of that instead of having to reinvent the wheel, that information is centrally placed for the next person to come along and develop and improve. So when someone is trying to figure out if a channel is maintenance or security, because when they monitor there's only locations given; they can share that so the next person interested in that system and looks to and finds it in the database and is unaware of or doesn't remember to check the Wiki (or the 1st person was adding to the DB and had one unknown and forgot they could put that in the Wiki), and isn't taking the time to search the Local forum, DSD form, Whistler forum, Software forum, and digital voice forum before putting the system in and turning the radio on; would both know of what info is needed and go into it with some understanding of what is there already making it easier and faster for them to add information to develop a stronger database.
As a user of the database, database contributor, forum member, former feed provider, contributor to the regular wiki (not the wiki that you go into the database then find the little button and see if something is there, they don't seem to be connected making "check the wiki" all the more complicated); for me the simplest solution would be a checkbox next to each TG that added a ? before the TG name so we would know it was unconfirmed and the TG name could be filled out with whatever info someone had. Then the next person can come by later confirm it and remove the ? by unchecking the box and editing the name as needed.
Which I understand is simpler to explain than to be implemented and acknowledging the Wiki is not something that automatically comes to mind looking at the DB may have upset the person who would be coding that, and that there are implications to be considered as far as potential future upgrades to the software running the DB; but the end goal is to make it easier to collaborate in order to get the DB as complete and accurate as possible (my hypo before not being solved by putting one the other or security/maintenance because then it's just misinformation and misleading and making it so it's not something that others will look at as knowing it needs more attention); which as the DB access is being sold to scanner users for programming purposes based on the comprehensive, accurate information we assemble for free; at least making it easier for us to assemble that would help improve the quantity and quality of the information in the DB would then make the DB more marketable to people considering premium access.
ka3jjz
Wiki Admin Emeritus
Unfortunately the effort to add such an alert would require a massive retrofit and review of the db and the wiki. You see, Unknown Talkgroups probably constitute the largest percentage of trunk-related data we have in the wiki. I doubt anyone would want to walk through every state just to flag whether such data exists for a particular trunk (the Unknown Talkgroups categories are organized by state, then trunk system).
I've heard several comments lately that the wiki is 'obscure' or hard to find anything. In this case, nothing is further from the truth. If there is a trunk system in the wiki that has unknown talkgroups, the first thing it has is an article which links the trunk system in the database to the trunk system in the wiki. If there are unknown talkgroups for that system, the link will be found in that page. It's a de-facto standard that no unknown talkgroups article can exist on its own - it HAS to have a trunk system parent of some kind.
Here's an example...the first thing you see is an article that describes the trunk system (sometimes in more detail than the database is able to provide).
Radio Communications of Virginia - the RR Wiki
Now look under the Related Pages topic, and you'll see a link for unknown talkgroups
Obscure? Pretty obvious to me, but then my opinion is biased (since I was the 'father' of this structure).
Mike
I've heard several comments lately that the wiki is 'obscure' or hard to find anything. In this case, nothing is further from the truth. If there is a trunk system in the wiki that has unknown talkgroups, the first thing it has is an article which links the trunk system in the database to the trunk system in the wiki. If there are unknown talkgroups for that system, the link will be found in that page. It's a de-facto standard that no unknown talkgroups article can exist on its own - it HAS to have a trunk system parent of some kind.
Here's an example...the first thing you see is an article that describes the trunk system (sometimes in more detail than the database is able to provide).
Radio Communications of Virginia - the RR Wiki
Now look under the Related Pages topic, and you'll see a link for unknown talkgroups
Obscure? Pretty obvious to me, but then my opinion is biased (since I was the 'father' of this structure).
Mike
ka3jjz
Wiki Admin Emeritus
To illustrate the volume of unknown talkgroups data we have in the wiki, here is the United States version of this, where we have something for 43 of the 50 states...
Category:United States Unknown Talkgroups - The RadioReference Wiki
We have other categories set up for Canada and one or two other countries.
Perhaps a button could be added in the Trunked Systems form for each state to point to this? It would be a HUGE effort (which I'm pretty sure no one would want to do) to review each trunk system in every state individually, even if it's well indexed in the wiki
Mike
Category:United States Unknown Talkgroups - The RadioReference Wiki
We have other categories set up for Canada and one or two other countries.
Perhaps a button could be added in the Trunked Systems form for each state to point to this? It would be a HUGE effort (which I'm pretty sure no one would want to do) to review each trunk system in every state individually, even if it's well indexed in the wiki
Mike
There is also a link to the system-specific Wiki page at the very top of the database page for a trunked system (to the right of the system name). Very easy to find. . . see attached example.
Attachments
And short of being linked those pages to get from this page to that via navigation, or even just getting those via the database is something I'd have no clue when the right time to click wiki button would be to get that is, and I've been using the DB since before 07 and on the forums since 07, so I've had plenty of time to get used to it. There is no obvious click the wiki at this point to get the unidentified talkgroup info and if it's not on Cap+ then it's just listed as a frequency in DMR mode without anymore info (I've found several businesses use the 1 repeater pair one slot for one channel one slot for a second), and if that's unknown it doesn't make the DB at all.
When I think of a Wiki stemming from the DB This is what comes to mind
STARCOM21 Statewide Illinois - The RadioReference Wiki
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Indiana_Project_Hoosier_SAFE-T_(Motorola)
Excellent place for infomration on how the system is structured, but nothing critical to actually listening to the system sans wildcard TG and knowing what you're listening to.
My comment was if unknown TG must be in the Wiki and they as you have linked to them all seem to have a main heading called unknown Talkgroup, there would be some sort of ability to have the DB reference the Wiki and see if there was a header that matched words "Unknown Talkgroup" and then put an icon there, I was not suggesting make someone go through and click each wiki page and then go change something in the DB. I was thinking it was computer logic to acknowledge condition present or absent then if present display icon.
Then when I do get a Capacity+ system with a wiki and after reading this thread I now know to click on it to look for more info I get this
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Metropolitan_School_District_of_Warren_Township
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Indiana_University,_IUPUI_Campus_Operations
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Emergency_Radio_Service_TRBO
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Eli_Lilly_Laboratories
Which is just negative re-enforcement for clicking the wiki button and when there are systems with no TG listed it leaves me no indication if some of these systems are even on air or just paper licenses someone got the FCC update on.
Or there's the example of Cook County, IL and it's "Digital Unassigned P25" that has the frequencies and what the future uses will be as part of the DB frequencies, and a whole story about them and links to news articles in the sun times in the DB, and then you click the Cook county Wiki and there really is no clear way to correlate what if any entries correspond the to the Frequencies in question.
Cook County, Illinois (IL) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Cook_County_(IL)
Or the most recent example of this mess of not having a central place to work and why I think the best solution would be in database indicators if more info is needed or not and leaving the Wiki for background historical and system design and site maps but not current updates.
The Tampa area has had this LTR system listed:
AllComm Wireless (Tampa LTR) Trunking System, Tampa, Florida - Scanner Frequencies
The radio service provide apparently decided to add or switch to DMR, so then this system appears in the DB:
AllComm Wireless (Tampa Capacity Plus) Trunking System, Tampa, Florida - Scanner Frequencies
So people enter that in trying to find and decode DMR signals, and clicking the Wiki there is of no use as you just get this:
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/AllComm_Wireless_(Tampa_Capacity_Plus)
So if you want to know what info to enter into a scanner to have a starting point then you need to be lucky enough to stumble across this thread:
http://forums.radioreference.com/fl...security-company-cap-hillsborough-county.html
Where everyone thought is was obvious which company was using that system because they were familiar with the old LTR system. Or post #4 in this thread for a system in a different county:
http://forums.radioreference.com/florida-radio-discussion-forum/334674-dmr-pinellas-county.html
And that doesn't address that there's regularly DMR type questions in other forums related to the technical aspects of DMR and DMR radios, and these nuggets of info are spread out not centrally located, so there might even be more out there on this particular system that I haven't found yet. Not to mention the new user that doesn't have all these different bits of information listed, buys the SDR lads the software and tries to see if they can make DSD work and then has no clue what they are listening to.
Which proves that instead of the sometimes It's in the DB, sometimes it's in the Wiki attached to the DB, sometimes it's in the Wiki from the main drop down, sometimes it's in the forums where you'd expect, sometimes it's buried in the forums where the average person would never go looking for it; means the fact that I've been stalking a system for the last week trying to listen list and develop information about the system means I might actually be doing it all in vain because it could already be hidden under some rock I haven't overturned because there is no central place to post and share information. That makes the collaboration on RadioReference harder than the actual signal hunting.
And none of that address the fact that when I look at a page like this, and pull info and looking at and focusing on the area in red:
I can't even see the wiki button that's tucked in the middle of other like buttons, way up on the page so it doesn't display and sure as heck doesn't show up in scanner programming software so it's almost always out of sight out of mind, which is probably why 99% of the time it's just empty articles under a header.
Which by my definition if I don't even see it most of the time and when I would use it I have to think of it on my own not prompted and seek it out and even then I have to search the page to find it, then it is obscure. Which is further evidenced by the fact that most DMR systems I click on have completely empty Wiki pages, demonstrating a lack of use and lack of information and so the average user experience is that it is useless to click it and don't bother. The first time I saw an unknown Talkgroup in a DB is when you linked to it, in searching on my own I have never seen a Wiki page (and still looking specifically for systems that have wiki pages with unknown talkgroups by going to the DB finding a DMR system and clicking the wiki button, and I am yet to find a system that has unknown talkgroups listed. But as explained above, unknown talkgroups exist on many of those systems and under current organization it's happenstance somewhere on RR as to whether or not you find it.
Which is why my main point is that the ideal solution in my eyes would be to make the DB allowed to have the information entered with some modifier or symbol, allowing it to be a central depository for information that makes collaboration amongst strangers on the internet easier to accomplish and more engaging if we all post to the same place and build off of the last person's efforts.
I get that the system works for you and that you designed it and you understand it, but applied on a larger scale, it's only discouraging people from putting input on RR and keeping it all in excel sheets on our home computers. Now you can choose to acknowledge that is decentralized, confusing, and difficult for others and consider making some changes (I've tried to be constructive and provide possible solutions, and I'm sure other people have more ideas) or you can decide it works for you and therefore must for for all others dig in your heels maintain the frustration and lack of use by others.
I'm not saying the Wiki is not useful either, just that it is not where people would expect to find this type of information, that others in this thread would seem to turn to the DB first and that the Wiki for the areas it is useful could be better advertised and the DB pages could be better laid out to draw attention to when the information is supplemented in the DB. I have proposed the solutions of database redesign to call attention to the Wiki, or the simpler, relax some of the DB rules on the condition something unknown is clearly indicated to make collaboration easier.
My end goal was only to offer constructive ways to make the site easier to use, and a better resource for everyone. As I now feel I'm repeating myself and no longer getting into more in-depth explanations I'll simply drop the issue and change will happen or it won't.
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D
DaveNF2G
Guest
To the above well-written comments I would add:
Searching the forums for any reference to a frequency, talkgroup or system of interest is further complicated by spelling errors. If I don't misspell my query in the same way as someone who posted a comment or thread in the forum did, then I will not find the information. Relationally linked data are immune to such problems when there is an editor/DBAdmin to ensure that the spelling is correct at the source.
Searching the forums for any reference to a frequency, talkgroup or system of interest is further complicated by spelling errors. If I don't misspell my query in the same way as someone who posted a comment or thread in the forum did, then I will not find the information. Relationally linked data are immune to such problems when there is an editor/DBAdmin to ensure that the spelling is correct at the source.
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