I remember back in the early 1980s when I was in college, I had a political science professor who always started off the first lecture of his freshman political science classes by passing out 3" X 5" note cards to all of the students. He asked students to write down their name, home phone number, address, date of birth, and social security number. All of the students did this, without murmur or complaint. (Hey, he was the professor, right?) After he had collected the cards back from the students, he said to the class, "Now, DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT EVER AGAIN!!!", and ripped them up and threw them into the trash can. He got the point across.
Do you hear SSN# on your scanner
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I remember back in the early 1980s when I was in college, I had a political science professor who always started off the first lecture of his freshman political science classes by passing out 3" X 5" note cards to all of the students. He asked students to write down their name, home phone number, address, date of birth, and social security number. All of the students did this, without murmur or complaint. (Hey, he was the professor, right?) After he had collected the cards back from the students, he said to the class, "Now, DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT EVER AGAIN!!!", and ripped them up and threw them into the trash can. He got the point across.
WPXS472
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Quote: they were taken to court over it since technically it is a Federal offense to use an SSN for anything but the purpose it was designed for meaning only the Social Security Administration is supposed to use it for ID purposes of any kind.
In Alabama, when you go to get your driver's license, the required form of ID is your Social Security CARD. They won't just accept the number. My card, which is ancient, says that it is not to be used for identification. My wife's and step daughter's, both issued within the past few years no longer say that.
In Alabama, when you go to get your driver's license, the required form of ID is your Social Security CARD. They won't just accept the number. My card, which is ancient, says that it is not to be used for identification. My wife's and step daughter's, both issued within the past few years no longer say that.
Illinois passed the Identity Protection Act in 2010 that prohibits any state, county, or local official or government from publicly posting, displaying, or otherwise disclosing an individual's social security number. Before that, I heard it all the time over the air on traffic stops and such.
Most likely someone with same exact name and close dob came up. Not uncommon, thus a ssn is requested from dispatcher to officer then back to dispatcher if available. Typically if a warrant is active. Ssn is used to confirm. Some have gone to last four but we solved the problem all together. System admins, others frequent this site and I can guarantee they may sit silent most of them but in time a posted concern is going to make them concerned and they solve it
lucky43113
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SSN is used for everything here even normal traffic stops they even require you to give your ssn if you are calling the police on someone or about an issue you are having no matter what it is
skinnyb82
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Maybe they should apply the statute to FOID Cards as well because I've heard, on multiple occasions, local PD checking FOID status by radioing in the person's FOID number, their name, and their DOB. I'm not even going to get into what can be done with that info but it isn't good and if the wrong person hears it, can easily result in the person getting caught up in a federal gun running case. They can't just be broadcasting that over the air. I've heard CCL (carry permit) numbers broadcast over the air too, which is just as bad as FOID (or possibly worse, depending on how a scumbag exploits the info).
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lucky43113
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As far as I know here in Ohio they can say whatever they want over the radio no law against it
skinnyb82
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There is absolutely no reason why a cop should need someone's SSN at a traffic stop or for simple contact, calls for service. Besides, I have three forms of government issued photo ID in my wallet at all times. Maybe I'm just uppity after twice having my SSN used to open up financial accounts in my name.
That being said the Privacy Act expressly states that you are not required to tell any government agent your SSN unless they can identify the law requiring it and tell you for what purpose your SSN will be used. "State law" is not good enough when asked "Why do you need that?"
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That being said the Privacy Act expressly states that you are not required to tell any government agent your SSN unless they can identify the law requiring it and tell you for what purpose your SSN will be used. "State law" is not good enough when asked "Why do you need that?"
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We will use SSN to help clarify whether a want/warrant pertains to a person on occasion. Even then, we normally use the last four, not the whole thing. Dumb luck if you have the same name, DOB, pedigree, AND last four SSN numbers, I guess. Nothing encrypted here.
cpetraglia
Member
Here is a problem just as bad as the SOC numbers being used in the clear. That's everyone talking about it on these forums and others. Does anyone think we are the only ones reading these forums? When you hear private stuff on your scanner, STOP TALKING ABOUT IT !! It will only lead to more loss of clear channels. People, please use some common sense.
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I understand what you're saying but, in reality, it doesn't work.
Many criminals are about as dumb as a box of hair. However, a substantial number are not and they already know where to get the information they want. If the information is being broadcast, it's going to leak out, irrespective of this forum.
I remember when we were first issued Kevlar vests. We were told not to talk about them. Don't let the criminals know we have them. If the bad guy knows we're wearing "bulletproof" vests, they'll shoot for the head. It didn't matter that you could see them under our shirts. They were about a half inch thick. Anyway, we didn't talk about them and that was good for about 6 months. Then the public would come up to you and say, "Do those things really work?" or "I'm glad you're wearing that thing," or just otherwise start up a conversation about them.
Do we hide them now? Well, no. In fact, we wear them on the outside now and put 'POLICE" in great big letters on the front and back.
Just to play the devil's advocate here, I think a lot of scanner-folk would argue that if you can hear it on your scanner in your living room, then by definition, it's not private.
Actually, it's not private. That doesn't mean it should have been put out on the air. And, it doesn't mean that the listener is free to do what he/she wants with the information.
skinnyb82
Member
Agreed. Besides that, this isn't exactly a revelation, some brand new source of SSN for ID thieves. I guarantee that they've known about this for some time and our discussion does nothing to encourage or hinder such activity. One thing I've learned is that the scumbags are always a step or two ahead of the population (which is why they're able to get away with it in the first place).
That being said, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy at a traffic stop. Not for the LEO, not for the subject. So how could there be any reasonable expectation of privacy when identifying info is broadcast over the air? I would tell them my last four and if they still have a problem identifying me, then he or she is SOL. They're not getting more when they already have three state government issued photo IDs, all of the IDs contain identifying numbers, to use for identification purposes. Plus the Illinois LEADS system will tell em everything they need to know, the only reason they need to radio dispatch is for the record, to confirm something. They usually don't do 27s unless something doesn't match up with what they're seeing on their MVC.
Bottom line, can't identify me with three of those IDs plus the last four of my SSN? Arrest me for obstruction of justice or some other BS, unsubstantiated offense, and learn about 42 USC 1983 and what it's like to worry about losing their home in a civil judgment. I know the drill and I'm not afraid to tell a LEO to pound sand when they overstep their authority. Give em enough rope and they'll hang themselves. I've had my HIPAA rights violated by the State Police, threatened by the same MSgt. with trumped up charges "if (he) ever sees me again" (walking away from a 90 minute traffic stop having only issued a warning angered him quite a bit). I then reamed him in his squad car, put the fear of God into him as he knew that what he pulled would get him terminated by ISP, charged with numerous crimes both state and federal, and open him to a civil suit for deprivation of civil liberties under the color of law in his individual capacity. I haven't even seen him since then so I guess the message got through. Empty threats, meh.
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lucky43113
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That's the difference here everything goes through dispatch they can not look up anything in their car they call it in and the dispatcher will either read it back or send it to the pc in their car
skinnyb82
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I recognize the difference between Illinois and....every other Midwestern state. We are regulated, licensed, permitted to the hilt. Gotta have an occupational license to engage in half of the occupations here. Gotta have a FOID to possess one round of ammunition (or a firearm, stun gun, high velocity pellet gun yup a pellet gun requires a permission slip from the State of Chicago I mean Illinois) or it's a misdemeanor (or felony, depending on how big of a posterior the prosecutor wishes to be). And LEOs can use their MVC to verify a valid FOID, however I know of instances where the number came back invalid, run the name and returns valid along with the number being valid (which is rather odd). Our carry permits are tied to our DLs, which are tied to our registration so if a permit holder is stopped, the officer knows that the registered owner holds a valid permit to carry. Live in a "modified duty to inform" state (only disclose concealed firearms if asked by LEO). I digress.
Ohio hasn't integrated its statewide database with federal such as NCIC (among other things)? That's interesting, I was under the impression that LEOs in every jurisdiction have MVCs capable of records checks. I've heard a 27 return an international warrant. Always hearing 10-61 (isolate self, dispatch returning active warrants or cautions with a caveat that the convictions/cautions cannot be used to develop reasonable suspicion). With no way for a LEO to run checks absent clogging dispatch, they're not only making it harder on law enforcement but the motorist/subject is also inconvenienced because of the prolonging of the stop itself. That being said, I have encountered cops who will attempt to extract as much PII out of people as possible.
I would still tell them "I'm only giving you my last four, that is sufficient to identify me." Contrary to popular belief, cops are woefully ignorant of most laws, case law, so I never trust them insofar as telling me what is legal, what is not, what the law says about this and that. If I did, then I'd have been arrested dozens of times for completely lawful activities simply because of an unreasonable mistake of law. If you say "Why do you need that?" and they reply "State law," my reply would be "Under the Privacy Act of 1974, you are required to tell me precisely which state law and for what purpose will my SSN be used."
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lucky43113
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that won't work here I have heard too many be detained for failing to give an officer the information they request. laws here can be weird at times like not having to be read your Meranda right in some cases I know that it happened to me.
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