Don't piss off JFK Approach

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N1SQB

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Wow!

Listening to this video makes me wonder, why arent there more accidents on the ground? Holy Lord! When I was 21 I considered doing ATC but didnt go for it I cant remember exactly why. Im glad I didnt. The stress level on this guys voice says it all. I salute those who do this for a living and do it well. Now that Im older, I realize that I would have had a few heart attacks by now with this kind of job. Thanks for posting it.
I get to hear approach and departure from JFK here in CT. but never ground control.

Manny
 

immelmen

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JetBlue screwd up. he deserved it. he didnt read the STAR speed restrictions and notes on the Lundy 5 arrival. The controllers attitude is standard for NY Approach for such and ugly/embarrassing error....but if you think that is bad just listen to O'Hare Approach long enough and you will hear a lot worse. They are ruthless in Chicago when it comes to making mistakes regarding SOP's (Do not call the tower at the marker when told to MONITOR at the marker!!!!) These are just places where there is NO margin for error. If you want to fly sloppy you better do it out west.
 
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N1SQB

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For the most part, the stress that the ATC folks have goes unckecked. The equipment that they have to work with in a lot of cases is antiquated. Pilots who dont listen also a contributing problem.

Manny
 

immelmen

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Pilots who dont listen also a contributing problem.

Manny
Lets not forget airline transport pilots are also simultaneously responsible for operating an extremely complex machine safely under extraordinarily challenging meteorological and operational environments...not to mention emergencies. ....that is not fair statement to make if your saying it never having experienced the context of the job.
 

N1SQB

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Common Sense, Simple Rules, DO NOT Change!

Lets not forget airline transport pilots are also simultaneously responsible for operating an extremely complex machine safely under extraordinarily challenging meteorological and operational environments...not to mention emergencies. ....that is not fair statement to make if your saying it never having experienced the context of the job.
For one one thing, I piloted smaller aircraft in the past before my Diabetes kicked in and ruined my chances permanently of flying. I know its not like a 777 or anything but the simple common sense rules do NOT change. You do NOT move an aircraft on the ground UNTIL ground control gives you the go-ahead. I dont care if you are flying a cessna-182 or a Boeing-777. Its just that simple, you dont move, period. I understand its a hard job for a pilot, but regardless, thats why there are 2 people in the cockpit and not just one. Someone BETTER be listening to the COMMS. Everything else is useless if you crash and never get off the ground.

Manny
 
D

DaveNF2G

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That Mooney pilot at Republic sounded confused the whole time.

The transcription on the YouTube screen has several errors, too.
 

nycrich

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I miss the late 70's & 80's when there was more foreign carriers flying into JFK. It was a common thing for pilots that English was not their primary language , make mistakes almost everday into JFK. It was a common thing everyday to see 747, DC-10, etc told to go around because they were doing "their own thing" on approach ( wrong altitude, speed). Several incidents made it to the news, but the internet was now starting and many incidents were only known to the tower and those monitoring. The common approach to the Statue of Liberty was also phased out because of too many near misses with high rises (Trade Center,etc).
 

brandon

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It's not just New York and the west coast isn't a vacation from it either. We have our fair share of testy controllers here in SoCal too :)
 

immelmen

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For one one thing, I piloted smaller aircraft in the past before my Diabetes kicked in and ruined my chances permanently of flying. I know its not like a 777 or anything but the simple common sense rules do NOT change. You do NOT move an aircraft on the ground UNTIL ground control gives you the go-ahead. I dont care if you are flying a cessna-182 or a Boeing-777. Its just that simple, you dont move, period. I understand its a hard job for a pilot, but regardless, thats why there are 2 people in the cockpit and not just one. Someone BETTER be listening to the COMMS. Everything else is useless if you crash and never get off the ground.

Manny
I am very sorry to hear of your loss of your medical. but it is best to have experience with something before being critical of it(ie air carrier flying). the incident in question did not happen on the ground, but to address the above, In part 121 airline ops the aircraft is taxied with out any instructions from a ground controller often...they are called "non-movement areas" and most ramps/taxiways in proximity to the gates/terminal are non-movement areas that are under no control and taxi is at the crews discretion.

as for being in the air as this jetblue flight was....Not to take anything away from pilots of smaller aircraft(I started out flying them on the long road to the airlines) but it is just very different. The second crew member is in a transport jet because the aircraft systems and the speeds under which they are operated require the full attention of a second crew member, yes that includes the radios. However rule number one which I am sure you were taught never changes....your first concern is to FLY THE PLANE. .....do you recall your instructor teaching you: "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate"....in that order....no exceptions...or "Turn, Twist, Talk." the idea is the same...Communications is the last priority as you can talk on the radio all you want but the ground still hurts when you hit it.
 

K4DHR

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JetBlue screwd up. he deserved it. he didnt read the STAR speed restrictions and notes on the Lundy 5 arrival. The controllers attitude is standard for NY Approach for such and ugly/embarrassing error....but if you think that is bad just listen to O'Hare Approach long enough and you will hear a lot worse. They are ruthless in Chicago when it comes to making mistakes regarding SOP's (Do not call the tower at the marker when told to MONITOR at the marker!!!!) These are just places where there is NO margin for error. If you want to fly sloppy you better do it out west.
FWIW, that isn't a hard speed requirement. It says "expect" which is not the same as "required". It basically means to expect that speed at that fix, but it does not preclude ATC from assigning a higher or lower speed or prevent the PIC from using a slower speed because of weather, etc.

If it was a "do 250K or greater", it would have the 250 underlined. Or if it was "exactly 250K" it would have a line above and below the 250. Otherwise, it is an advisory speed and as the STAR says, it is for planning information. Basically so that the pilots can go ahead and start slowing down in preparation for that speed or slower.

I guess the guys in Atlanta must be different, because I've heard a number of mistakes listening to chatter with approach and center, but I've never heard anyone lose their cool like that. Frustration? Of course. But I've never heard a controller brow beat someone over the radio because of miscommunication or a minor pilot deviation. It just doesn't accomplish anything.
 

windchaser

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in the late 60's the first branif 727 with new paint purple was ready for take off and asked for permission to take off, the tower said " ok sweetie you can take off now " mikes were clicking all over the place, you have. to have been there to really enjoy it. another time a branif was on final and the tower said " branif xxx squawk i dent and do a figure 8 over george town bar and grill over" for those who dont know the grill was an all mail bar, branif pilots really got hell from every airlines because of there planes different colors.
 

immelmen

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FWIW, that isn't a hard speed requirement. It says "expect" which is not the same as "required". It basically means to expect that speed at that fix, but it does not preclude ATC from assigning a higher or lower speed or prevent the PIC from using a slower speed because of weather, etc.

If it was a "do 250K or greater", it would have the 250 underlined. Or if it was "exactly 250K" it would have a line above and below the 250. Otherwise, it is an advisory speed and as the STAR says, it is for planning information. Basically so that the pilots can go ahead and start slowing down in preparation for that speed or slower.
OK, here goes....yes the 250 was "expect". However, in Part 121 operations manuals(which become FAR's by defacto) it states in a decent you should maintain best forward airspeed when transitioning from Mach number.(Vmo is about 310 knots in the transition and gets faster as you descend) UNLESS otherwise directed by ATC or for operational considerations...thats because when folks slow down 70 miles out thats when ground stops are issued and no one likes those(ie. jet blue should have been going fast). soooooo, to deviate from that falls under "Required reports to ATC" one of which is a change in planned airspeed of 10kts or 5%. ...as a note, no restriction ever prevents slowing to Va for weather, but you MUST report it.

....that is why JB screwed up and ATC got pissed. I guess i could have been more specific in my first post, but a person really needs to experience the job to understand everything that is happening.

So to put it to bed, here is what most likely happened. Who ever was flying this leg was probably a recent upgrade from the airbus which has auto-throttles and this was probably a EMB190 that does not have AT. They were in the decent to FL190 and when to autopilot leveled the jet, the pilot being use to auto-throttles did not reset the power for level flight and the aircraft decelerated. Not unheard of when auto-throttles are MEL'd on aircraft so equipped. there is absolutely no good reason the crew would intentionally set auto-throttles(if they had them) that slow at that phase of flight(unless atc told them to) in the absence of moderate or greater turbulence.


I guess the guys in Atlanta must be different, because I've heard a number of mistakes listening to chatter with approach and center, but I've never heard anyone lose their cool like that. Frustration? Of course. But I've never heard a controller brow beat someone over the radio because of miscommunication or a minor pilot deviation. It just doesn't accomplish anything.
Actually it does....everyone up there knows you better have your brief done, know the ATIS code and have all your S**T in one sock before you call up Chicago approach...you just have to be up front to feel the tension.

Atlanta, while neck and neck with O'Hare for most operations, has all its runways in parallel, has no other major airports nearby and the weather is less dynamic then other places. With out question, the most intense airspace in the world to fly in is Chicago Approach Control during hazy VMC. Even more intimidating is O'Hare Ground control/taxiing at O'Hare(don't ever come to a stop on a taxiway!!!!!) La Guardia is a close second.
 
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