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DTR Rebanding

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jimmnn

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July 25, 2006

TO: 800 MHz DTR System Users
SUBJECT: DTR System Rebanding

The statewide, 800 MHz radio Digital Trunked Radio (DTR) system will be undergoing a Federal Communications Commission mandated shift in its frequency allocation. This shift will require every frequency sensitive item such as base stations, mobile radios, hand-held radios, and in-building signal boosters be retuned to the new allocation.

The location and quantities of these devices needs to be determined so that the contractor performing the rebanding can perform the work. This work will be done a no cost to the radio user or facility. However, the contractor must know where the radios are located. The information required is:

> Location and quantity of the radios
> Type of radios and manufacturer
> Contact information

This information is requested no later than Friday, August 4th.
Please be advised that radios that are not rebanded, when rebanding is accomplished, will cease to work. It is imperative that all radios be identified. Radios that are not rebanded will be rebanded at the owner's expense.

Ronald Lutz
Electronic Engineer / Telecommunication EMS Liaison Department of Personnel and Administration Division of Information Technologies
2452 West Second Avenue # 19
Denver, Colorado 80223
303-866-2412 (voice)
303-922-1811 (fax)
ron.lutz@state.co.us
 

cstockmyer

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What is re banding? I think it was talked about at the last meeting, I just don't remember.
 

Moosemedic

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Won't the rest of the state need to finish getting "banded" before they start "re-banding" ?

LOL!
 

jimmnn

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luke-1 said:
August 4th?

That's pretty quick

Luke
Agree just a good example of how unorganized the system is I mean these agencies that have deployed the radios have had to receive CCNC approval to operate anyways and should that not mean all the information they are asking for is already on file?

It was almost a joke to post this on the COEMS list.

Jim<
 

Moosemedic

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Rebanding or disbanding

Just thought of something.....

The statement was made that after the rebanding was done, radios not rebanded will "cease to work" Does that mean that old radios will not be compatible with new radios as the rebanding occurs? Unless I'm missing something I beleive that's what they're saying here.

I see very bad things just around the corner.

For example, let's say the county dispatch center "rebands" thier base stations and towers on the first of the month. However the local volunteer fire department is scheduled to "reband" on the third thursday of the month. You're saying that they'll not be able to receive calls until that date?

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Imagine affiliations as you travel across the state.
 

DTRS_Master

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jimmnn said:
Agree just a good example of how unorganized the system is I mean these agencies that have deployed the radios have had to receive CCNC approval to operate anyways and should that not mean all the information they are asking for is already on file?
They have CCNC approval to operate but do they have to get approval for each radio that they bring on the system? I do not see anything in the CCNC documents to suggest that they do, so it is very likely that CCNC would not have this information. Also, there is nothing in the application documents to define what manufacturer of radio they are using and so on, so I would doubt that the information being requested is something that CCNC asks for - nor would need to ask for if rebanding was not an issue.
 

n0doz

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Moosemedic said:
Just thought of something.....

1. The statement was made that after the rebanding was done, radios not rebanded will "cease to work" Does that mean that old radios will not be compatible with new radios as the rebanding occurs? Unless I'm missing something I beleive that's what they're saying here.

2. I see very bad things just around the corner.
For example, let's say the county dispatch center "rebands" thier base stations and towers on the first of the month. However the local volunteer fire department is scheduled to "reband" on the third thursday of the month. You're saying that they'll not be able to receive calls until that date?

3. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Imagine affiliations as you travel across the state.
1. No, it means that some of the frequencies and other data will be changed in rebanding. Radios that are not updated won't work.
2. Exactly.
3. Should be OK once everyone is reprogrammed.

BTW I agree 100% with Jim - it's ludicrous that CCNC, with the tight controls they have regarding who has a radio, wouldn't know who has what and where.
 

DTRS_Master

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Moosemedic (and others) - it appears that the general idea of how rebanding will work is based on assumptions. It will have to be near negligence on the part of the agency for radios to wind up inoperable after rebanding. This topic has been on the table for no less than two years now so if anyone in public safety is using 800 MHz and doesn't know about this it is nearly negligence on their part, even now.

Here are some links so you can understand the process better:

http://www.motorola.com/governmentandenterprise/contentdir/en_US/Files/General/Rebanding_Policies_Procedures_Considerations_ May_10_06.pdf

https://feedback.motorola.com/governmentandenterprise/northamerica/en-us/public/functions/Microsite/Microsite.aspx?Site=en_US/microsites/800MHz_rebanding

http://www.800ta.org

http://www.macom-wireless.com/800rebanding/default.asp

Pay particular attention to the first link since it has the most to do with the colorado system.
 
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DTRS_Master

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n0doz said:
BTW I agree 100% with Jim - it's ludicrous that CCNC, with the tight controls they have regarding who has a radio, wouldn't know who has what and where.
They have tight control on who can HAVE a radio but not HOW MANY they can have. This is where CCNC's questions alook to be coming from. It would be ludicrous to have agencies petition CCNC for each radio they bring on. Right now, based on reading CCNC documentation, it looks like agencies that are already authorized to use the system and get new radios just take them to shops that can program and they do it.
 
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SCPD

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Moosemedic said:
Just thought of something.....

The statement was made that after the rebanding was done, radios not rebanded will "cease to work" Does that mean that old radios will not be compatible with new radios as the rebanding occurs? Unless I'm missing something I beleive that's what they're saying here.

I see very bad things just around the corner.

For example, let's say the county dispatch center "rebands" thier base stations and towers on the first of the month. However the local volunteer fire department is scheduled to "reband" on the third thursday of the month. You're saying that they'll not be able to receive calls until that date?
Come on, do you really think they're that stupid? The statement about them not working was an over simplification, but it's pretty simple how it will work. The radios have to be updated before any changes on the system.

The Motorola radios will have the firmware updated to allow the "full spectrum scan" to find the new control channels. Remember the radios only need to find the control channels and then the system can control the radios after that. So they will pre-program the radios with the new "full spectrum scan" and the future (re-banded) control channels (15 MHz below current frequencies for NPSPAC channels).

Then the system can be retuned at will and the radios will find the old CCHs via full spectrum scan and the new CCHs via the CCH frequencies programmed in the radios or full spectrum scan.

The most difficult part is getting the license holders to coordinate the frequency swap at the same time without much down time per frequency. It will be tricky and there will be some problems but these people aren't dumb and a lot of planning has gone into it. It will probably go pretty well. And they're not doing it for the fun of it. It needs to be done to help correct the interference problem (that the FCC let happen over the years).
 

SCPD

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BTW, CCNC does have to assign a radio ID for each radio out there. So,in theory, they should know about every radio already. But they may sometimes assign blocks of radio IDs and not keep track of every one (although the system keeps statistics on usage).

They may just want to comfirm that every radio gets updated or make sure they haven't lost track of any radios. It makes perfect sense to do a radio inventory during this process.

Also the contractors hired to do the reprogramming have to quote prices ahead of time so Sprint/Nextel can pay for it. It doesn't seem too unreasonable to ask each agency to provide the number of radios that need to be touched since they own their own radios.
 
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n0doz

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DTRS_Master said:
They have tight control on who can HAVE a radio but not HOW MANY they can have. This is where CCNC's questions alook to be coming from. It would be ludicrous to have agencies petition CCNC for each radio they bring on. Right now, based on reading CCNC documentation, it looks like agencies that are already authorized to use the system and get new radios just take them to shops that can program and they do it.
OK. I was under the impression that each radio needed approval in the sense that the individual radio ID would have to be authorized. That would give CCNC an inventory of what's out there, wouldn't it?
 

Todd-NG

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n0doz said:
OK. I was under the impression that each radio needed approval in the sense that the individual radio ID would have to be authorized. That would give CCNC an inventory of what's out there, wouldn't it?
I'm not sure if each individual radio ID is authorized with CCNC. Even if they are, things change. Say an agency has 60 radio ID's listed with CCNC but 3 of those radios have been damaged beyond repair. More than likely the agency hasn't contacted CCNC to have those ID's removed from the list so the inventory of what radios need to be rebanded would be off.
 

UPMan

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poltergeisty said:
So I wonder if Uniden will have a firmware in time?
Based on our current understanding of the changes being made for rebanding, no firmware updates should be necessary for continued monitoring of P25, EDACS, LTR, and conventional systems. Users will need to update the scanner's programmed frequencies to include any new Control Channel assignments (for P25) and to reflect revised LCN's for EDACS and LTR systems.
 

poltergeisty

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UPMan said:
Based on our current understanding of the changes being made for rebanding, no firmware updates should be necessary for continued monitoring of P25, EDACS, LTR, and conventional systems. Users will need to update the scanner's programmed frequencies to include any new Control Channel assignments (for P25) and to reflect revised LCN's for EDACS and LTR systems.
I could have swore that the channel numbers for the current 800 MHz. system where going to change, thus making the current control channel not able to track properly.

Now this I read awhile ago and this issue of re-banding has been debated and changed countless times. So I don't know!

296d's don't need a firmware update?
 
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