Ducting/Weather

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basstuba

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I just remembered that sometimes when there is a good deal of ground clutter on weather radar(NWS)this can be a clue to vhf/uhf ducting.I am in hoke county north carolina and can pick up myrtle beach trs on a good hot and humid night.this is about 120 miles away.are there any other members out there getting over 75 miles on trs when the ducting is good.
 

kb2vxa

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Hi Bass and readers,

Is there a treble tuba? (;->)

Sorry OM, the term "ground clutter" does not apply, modern radars are computer driven and programmed to ignore ground reflections that would otherwise clutter the display. The beauty of Doppler radar is it's programmed to detect motion so it automatically ignores ground clutter and cloud reflections.

Speaking of which, before Doppler I used to see a strange cloud like image at the tip of Sandy Hook (NJ) and never figured out what it was. There is nothing there besides a bunch of low wooden buildings at Fort Hancock now deactivated. Hmmmm, does the word "military" mean anything to you? (;->)

A temperature inversion forms a boundary layer in the troposphere which forms a duct between it and the ground which the signal travels through like a waveguide, bouncing between the boundary layer and the ground all the way. Radar does not detect this layer but is affected by it, mariners are sometimes confused by distant "ghost" images much like a mirage.

"Tropo" can sometimes be predicted by looking at a weather map, most often it's caused by an approaching cool front when cool air slips under warm surface air forming the boundary layer. On the other hand approaching warm air can slide up and over cooler surface air again forming the boundary.

In coastal areas a cool onshore breeze can slip under warm air, our ducting along the Eastern Seaboard is legendary. It's often unpredictable due to wind shifts and can happen on and off all day while it normally happens during the evening or early morning hours due to cyclic solar heating and cooling effects. BTW, I can see things in the clouds, when they're coming from the west and there's a cool breeze off the ocean distant Coast Guard stations are often heard.

Being a ham operating on VHF and UHF frequencies at the Jersey Shore I often enjoy tropo and have worked stations from the Canadian Maritimes to the Caribbean and sometimes over 150 miles inland due west. No "super station" here, only 50W VHF and 25W UHF into a vertical @ 80' AMSL and the antenna does double duty, works great on the scanner.
 

twolf816

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on the local radar here, there is ground clutter all over the place. depending on the weather, i pick up ducting from about 200 miles away on my portable fire radio.
 

RyltnVFD

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I regularly pick up Kenosha County, WI Fire/Rescue, and Cary Fire Protection District in Cary, IL, both on 154.250, from the Benton Harbor, MI area. Cary is about 80 miles.
 
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I have one bank in a scanner programmed with all the Illinois State Police district frequencies. When the band is open, I can see which districts I am hearing to get an idea of what the conditions are.
 

kb2vxa

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Hi 8 and all,

"on the local radar here, there is ground clutter all over the place."

Are you SURE you know what ground clutter is? Are you SURE you understand what you're looking at? The only times I have seen ground clutter was on the weather avoidance radar in aircraft cockpits if the pilot forgot to turn it off. On the other hand the NY skyline stands out on marine navigational radar but I wouldn't call it clutter.

The Doppler weather "radar" you see on TV or the Internet isn't a radar display, rather a computer generated map with an overlay showing yet another computer generated, false colored mapping of the storm system(s). Simply put there's no way you're going to see ground clutter unless you're looking at the return echoes on a radar display scope.

I sure wish I knew what you guys were talking about, maybe then I could understand what you think you're seeing.

Once again, set aside the "radar", it'll show you nothing but storms. Look at the weather map with the ISOBARS which will tell you of an approaching front which may produce a temperature inversion and resultant ducting. Please, learn something about meteorology and radio propagation before you contradict over 100 years of collective research and experience you will find in scientific and technical publications if you care to read them.
 

RyltnVFD

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kb2vxa said:
Hi 8 and all,

"on the local radar here, there is ground clutter all over the place."

Are you SURE you know what ground clutter is? Are you SURE you understand what you're looking at? The only times I have seen ground clutter was on the weather avoidance radar in aircraft cockpits if the pilot forgot to turn it off. On the other hand the NY skyline stands out on marine navigational radar but I wouldn't call it clutter.

The Doppler weather "radar" you see on TV or the Internet isn't a radar display, rather a computer generated map with an overlay showing yet another computer generated, false colored mapping of the storm system(s). Simply put there's no way you're going to see ground clutter unless you're looking at the return echoes on a radar display scope.

I sure wish I knew what you guys were talking about, maybe then I could understand what you think you're seeing.

Once again, set aside the "radar", it'll show you nothing but storms. Look at the weather map with the ISOBARS which will tell you of an approaching front which may produce a temperature inversion and resultant ducting. Please, learn something about meteorology and radio propagation before you contradict over 100 years of collective research and experience you will find in scientific and technical publications if you care to read them.

Ok, then what the hell am I looking at here?
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/radar/radar.php?site=kiwx&loop=n&type=p37cr
 

SAR923

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Or go to WeatherUnderground, where one of the options is to remove ground clutter from a radar display. Ground clutter has been around as long as there has been in radar. The only difference now is that you can computer enhance the display to remove the ground clutter.
 

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Ducting is a neat phenomenon. Occasionally in the winter I can receive a 146.730 repeater near the city of Monterey, California. This repeater is about 200 miles away and is the same frequency as the nearest 2 meter repeater next to the town I live in. Because of the steepness and high elevations of the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada, the region I live in, quite often tropospheric ducting stays real high on the lee side of this major mountain range. Knive edge paths and reflections through the mountains in very limited locations can provide some of the most interesting radio listening and transmitting.
 

KC1UA

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We've had an excellent summer for tropo here on Cape Cod. As I type this I'm sitting on my porch listening to NYPD on 476 MHz via my PRO-97 attached to a Comet GP-9 antenna via a patch panel in my radio room. A 246T, also attached to the GP-9, is receiving numerous VHF-HI stations from Long Island and the Jersey Shore.

Tropo DX'ing is my favorite aspect of the scanning hobby. I often can sit here with a rubber duck and listen to NYPD. It is NOT necessary to have a big antenna array when conditions are right, but it's certainly a plus. Tropo can occur all year round in my area, and I've had some of my best DX captures during winter openings.

Up the page, Hepburn's Tropo site was mentioned. Within it is a superb explanation of the several different types of Tropo DX that can be received. It's a good read; check it out.
 

RyltnVFD

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So what exactly is the spotty, non-organized stuff registering on the radar in a circle around the NEXRAD?

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/MomentaryLapseOfReason/latest.gif

It doesn't seem like it is precipitation, otherwise I'd be soaking wet, or at least that's what I think.

Note- From what I understand from looking at the NWS NEXRAD information site, WSR-88D products available online or via FTP/EMWIN do not have ground clutter or AP removed. The picture shown above was composite reflectivity on a very clear day.
 
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bsavery

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Sorry KB2VXA but what they are seeing IS ground clutter.

It shows up very well on most all modern weather radar when looking at composite reflectivity and the radar is set to Clear Air mode.

Bob
 
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