DuPage Co. ETSB to sole source Motorola SC21?

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N_Jay

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What are the small set of features that are unique to Motorola?

I don't have it off the top of my head.

ADP is one everyone is talking about these days, and I think "Vote-Steer" is also, but it is not as common,

The standards are designed to allow manufacturer proprietary extensions as a way to allow (and even encourage) innovation and further development.

If you look at the long history of LMR, almost everything we know as a common feature today started as a proprietary feature from one company or another.
 

Squad10

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N_Jay, with the DuPage ETSB nor the Radio Steering Committee not knowing the current level of “dB” for any of the users’ current radio Police UHF and Fire VHF, and a move to 12dB StarCom21 could result in a worse quality of signal for first responder handheld portable radio communication, do you think it would be advisable for the DuPage ETSB/Radio Steering Committee to ascertain the current radio Police UHF and Fire VHF “dB” levels to make potential StarCom21 user officials aware of a possible reduction of quality of signal if they move to StarCom21?
 
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N_Jay

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N_Jay, with the DuPage ETSB nor the Radio Steering Committee not knowing the current level of “dB” for any of the users’ current radio Police UHF and Fire VHF, and a move to 12dB StarCom21 could result in a worse quality of signal for first responder handheld portable radio communication, do you think it would be advisable for the DuPage ETSB/Radio Steering Committee to ascertain the current radio Police UHF and Fire VHF “dB” levels to make potential StarCom21 user officials aware of a possible reduction of quality of signal if they move to StarCom21?

I would guess that that has already been done.

However, the "dB" discussion, I find, tends to confuse rather then enlighten most system users.

The issues is a statistical margin above the normal required signal level to help assure in-building coverage.

We can argue numbers all day but there is no way to directly compare different systems on different bands with different sites.

What is important to understand is that very few systems in the past were designed with the amount of margin in the signal levels of current systems. This is mostly driven by the significantly increased expectations for new systems.

I would guess that unless they are very over-built, the current system provides much worse in building coverage than what is being proposed. However; that said, no matter what is done there will be building that used to "work fine" that now have coverage problems, and we will never hear the end of the stories, yet the many buildings that had coverage problems that now work fine are irrelevant.
 

Squad10

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I would guess that that has already been done.

However, the "dB" discussion, I find, tends to confuse rather then enlighten most system users.

The issues is a statistical margin above the normal required signal level to help assure in-building coverage.

We can argue numbers all day but there is no way to directly compare different systems on different bands with different sites.

What is important to understand is that very few systems in the past were designed with the amount of margin in the signal levels of current systems. This is mostly driven by the significantly increased expectations for new systems.

I would guess that unless they are very over-built, the current system provides much worse in building coverage than what is being proposed. However; that said, no matter what is done there will be building that used to "work fine" that now have coverage problems, and we will never hear the end of the stories, yet the many buildings that had coverage problems that now work fine are irrelevant.

I do not want to argue numbers all day.

Since it is not known (and one would not want to guess and/or assume in the name of public safety) if a current system is under-built or over-built, are you saying that there is no way to directly compare end to end quality of signal for different systems on different bands using a side by side portable radio comparison? Of course the portables (and involved infrastructure) are close in tier and operating to specification. This would be like a "can you hear me now?" test.
 
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N_Jay

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To directly compare the two systems in building you would need to develop a statistically valid random (or pseudorandom) set of test sites throughout the coverage area, and have both systems up and running.
This would be a difficult and lengthy process which would still only yield results within a statistical range people will still argue over.

The well established method for providing an acceptable representation of in-building coverage is to use computer modeling as you would with any proposed system and add an amount of signal margin to help assure building penetration.
There are tables that have been created to help match building types to loss figures for each band, but again, you end up piling statistics on top of statistics, and in the end the person (usually from the fire service) will never be satisfied.

So, if you "do not want to argue numbers all day" your three choices are;
1) To spend a lot of time studying radio propagation and statistics,
2) To trust the technical people your are working with,
3) To hire a consultant to review the work (As long as you trust their work)

Or you can expect to "argue numbers all day" for weeks or months.
 

Squad10

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We can argue numbers all day but there is no way to directly compare different systems on different bands with different sites.
Really?

There is no way to directly compare different systems, different bands for KNOWN SITES, even though the sites are different?

What about the coverage prediction software programs of Motorola and other companys (EDX Wireless) offer?

Are they no longer valid and/or used?

What is important to understand is that very few systems in the past were designed with the amount of margin in the signal levels of current systems.

Is YOUR COMMENT true of the DuPage Co.. ETSB public safety agencies considering moving to StarCom21?

Their last design does not have the amount of margin in the signal levels of current systems?

I’m speaking of specifics, not generalities.
 

Squad10

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Emergency response agencies considering membership in a countywide subscription-based radio system want to know the bottom line before they sign up.

Administrator Linda Zerwin told public safety officials from municipal departments in the county Thursday that the project is at a "crossroad" because those interdependent variables can't be nailed down precisely just yet.

Those who sign on to the system will enter five-year service contracts with Motorola. The ETSB, which is working with a spending cap of about $20 million, will reimburse the members for the first four years' worth of fees.

DuPage Co. radio system goes to municipalities :: Naperville Sun :: Local News

Don't care what it costs, I can't wait to get that new fancy APX 7000 portable, hope I keep my job so I get the chance to use it.

Well now our Community Organizer is saying that Congress must "quickly approve" a $50 billion bill to provide emergency aid to state and local governments. He says that the money is needed in order to avoid "massive layoffs of teachers, police and firefighters" and to support the still-fragile economic recovery. And by using the word "emergency" Obama is telling us that the money to fund this boondoggle should be borrowed --- borrowed from future generations of Americans. No spending cuts to come up with the $50 billion ... just add it to the debt.

An Open Letter to Illinois Service Providers

I would like to begin by thanking you for your outstanding efforts in providing critical services to the people of Illinois. I remain impressed as always by the important work you do to ensure that our most vulnerable citizens are cared for and protected. Moreover, your ongoing commitment to continue working in good faith as business partners with the State of Illinois is truly commendable given the fact that the State has been anything but a good business partner in return. I know that the current payment situation has caused many of you personal anguish as well as professional difficulties as you struggle to maintain viable service levels.

Your commitment and perseverance stands in stark contrast to the state's actions over the past few years. Providers have been placed in an extremely vulnerable situation as you were subjected to needless anxiety during budgetary stalemates that did not allow you to develop your own budgets and left you wondering what program levels would be funded and whether service terminations and staff reductions would be necessary. Now after too many of you have made painful decisions and sacrifices, the state is months behind in meeting its financial obligations to you, so I don't blame you for being angry. You have every right to be.

The level of unpaid obligations in my office stands at $4.4 billion and will continue to grow as there is simply insufficient revenues to meet all the demands. The state has borrowed $2.25 billion that must be paid back within the next six months. There is a new proposal to borrow $500 million more, a sum that I believe will simply exacerbate the existing problem of paying back the money we already owe, and more seriously, give false hope to all of you awaiting payments from the state. I refuse to agree to a "solution" that addresses only 5% of the problem and even then only for the very short term at the risk of creating a bigger problem No matter what else you may hear about the benefits of more borrowing, that is my honest assessment.

Like you, I am disappointed as well as deeply concerned that you have been placed in this situation. You deserve better, and the people that you work with and care for deserve better as well. Instead of the non-stop cycle of extended payment delays, we need a comprehensive plan that will eliminate the deficit and restore fiscal stability to Illinois for the long term. Most importantly, it is time for our leaders to recognize that the public service community and its hundreds of thousands of employees is not just an essential purveyor of critically needed services to our most at risk population but is a significant element of our state's economy. I not only recognize that fact but will continue to seek meaningful ways to address the problems confronting the service community and to maintain what is in many ways is one of Illinois most important infrastructure components.

In the meantime, going forward, I will work with you to the best of my ability, as I always have, and be honest with you, as I always have, to address the day to day problems that confront us.

Sincerely,

Daniel W. Hynes
 

Squad10

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Has anyone found out about whether encryption wil be employed or not?

Don't know if encryption will always be used, but ADP encryption is included as part of the DuPage Co. APX7000 Portable Radio Core Package.

FWIW, AES/DES-XL/DES-OFB ENCRYPTION with MULTIKEY costs just under a grand to add per radio.
 

joeychgo

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I have since learned form a reputable source that DuComm related agencies will be encrypted.
 

APX6000

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I saw the website for the DuPage tehephone board & it looked like they might be going with Motorola APX 7000 Portable Radios.
 

Squad10

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It appears so, from:

http://www.dupageradio.org/files/Binder/4. System Descriptions/4b. APX Core Package.pdf

My guess is that most PDs will want the APX7000 with dual band capability and high end encryption - about $6700 per portable. The DuPage Starcom21 fixed end local equipment will be in the tens of millions.

Motorola is becoming the Walmart of the IL public safety two-way radio market. Mo' & Mo' money.

I'd make the most listening to Dupage Co. clear analog radio traffic. My gut feeling is that DuPage is headed toward full time encryption like Cook County.
 

ilgrant

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Unless someone knows what the plan is all of this is encryption talk is pure speculation.

I only know of one agency (Carol Stream) that has signed up for sure.
 

joeychgo

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Villa Park has signed on as well.

In the end, I believe they all will sign on. They are getting the portable radios for free on a grant. Plus they are getting the first 4 years of service for free. (they have to agree to 10 years service to get this) It will all be encrypted. The cost per unit for service will be something in the range of $40 per unit per month.
 

ilgrant

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If I recall correctly (corrections are welcome), when Starcom first came out it was approximately $50 / radio and an extra $25 / radio for the encryption (these are per month charges). I think I read that the basic 40 bit encryption is not usable on Starcom so they have to go the hardware option.

Taken the cost of access using encryption, the cost to put the encryption option on the radios, the number of radios and the economy I am leaning towards no encryption when they go live in summer 2011.
 
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