East Mountain Communications Tier 3 DMR

[dmurphy78]

I am trying to monitor the East Mountain Communications Tier 3 DMR system, Highland site using a BCD436HP or BCD325P2 both with the DMR/MotoTrbo upgrade. I can hear the control channel data when programmed in conventional (very strong signal), but get no voice traffic when scanning the system.

I also tried monitoring the system using DSD+ (Public Release) and the software decodes the control channel data and populates channel numbers like below:

Ch
403
404
1953
1954
2289
2290
? CC


The frequency info I used is from the database.

Radio IDs and Talkgroups are popping up in the Event Window (TG 5304648, TG 5302486, TG 5302464, among others) but I am unable to track any voice. My guess is that the frequency information or LCN is incorrect??

I've tried importing the info from the database and manually programming it with no luck. I have been able to sucessfully monitor other DMR systems with both scanners and the DSD+/SDR setup.

Any ideas on how to go about locating the voice traffic frequencies and determining LCN?

I haven't tried any of the other sites on the system yet and I havent tried finding conversations that match the DSD+ Talkgroup info using conventional search.

I know it isn't a particularly interesting or busy system, but there should be something.

East Mountain Communications Trunking System, Regional, New York

East Mountain Communications Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

 

[GTR8000]

Put the 436 in LCN Finder mode

 

[k2hz]

The 436 needs the LCN which is what is in the RRDB. DSD+ (Ch) reports the LSN not the LCN.

For a system in the RRDB, either do an import or enter frequencies and associated LCNs from the DB. For an unknown system, enter the CC frequency and run LCN Finder. Or do the math to convert LSN to LCN per this thread:

SDS100/SDS200: - Trouble programming a Tier III DMR system; LSN vs. LCN?

I’m trying to program a DMR Tier III trunking system into an SDS100, using Sentinel Software. DSD Plus shows this as the system: Ch TX Freq 451 453.8000 452 453.8000 1447 460.0250 1448 460.0250 1497 460.3375 1498 460.3375 1527 460.5250 1528...

forums.radioreference.com

 

[nozzlenut83]

The problem seems to be in the database. The channel IDs for the Highland site are off by 1.

CH ID	Frequency	Color Code
201 should be 202	452.500	2
976 should be 977	462.1875	2
1125 should be 1126	464.050c	2
1144 should be 1145	464.2875	2

Try those LCNs in the 436 or 325 and you should be all set. My 325P2 tracks it just fine with those LCNs

 

[GTR8000]

If the CH ID's are wrong, please submit the correct ones so they can be fixed. Thanks.

 

[nozzlenut83]

If the CH ID's are wrong, please submit the correct ones so they can be fixed. Thanks.

I will. This isn't a system I monitor every day so I want to wait for a weekday when there is more activity on the system to make sure everything is correct before I submit it.

 

[pro92b]

The LCN's in the database originally came from running LCN finder using my BCD536HP. This morning only one user was active, the landscaping supplier. My BCD536HP did track fine this morning using the database LCN's. This afternoon the system is totally dead. I also will track the system on Monday to see if the scanner continues to receive all the activity DSD+ shows. At this point I don't see anything wrong with the database.

 

[k2hz]

The problem seems to be in the database. The channel IDs for the Highland site are off by 1.

CH ID	Frequency	Color Code
201 should be 202	452.500	2
976 should be 977	462.1875	2
1125 should be 1126	464.050c	2
1144 should be 1145	464.2875	2

Try those LCNs in the 436 or 325 and you should be all set. My 325P2 tracks it just fine with those LCNs

It appears there may be some variation in how different systems determine the LCN from reading the thread I listed above. I am not familiar with the East Mountain system but, based on the Rochester NY RadioMax Hytera TIII system, 452.500 would be 201 as in the DB.

This needs to be verified before the RRDB is changed.

 

[nozzlenut83]

SDS100/SDS200: - Trouble programming a Tier III DMR system; LSN vs. LCN?

I’m trying to program a DMR Tier III trunking system into an SDS100, using Sentinel Software. DSD Plus shows this as the system: Ch TX Freq 451 453.8000 452 453.8000 1447 460.0250 1448 460.0250 1497 460.3375 1498 460.3375 1527 460.5250 1528...

forums.radioreference.com

Post #19 by mtindor in the above thread:

That's interesting that somewhere they talk about rounding down. That would not work well. LSN 5 is LCN 3. But if you did 5/2 and rounded down, you would get 2.5 (and then rounded down it would be 2 -- which is wrong). So you want to divide odd number LSNs by 2 and round up, or better yet just divide the even number by 2 and be done with it. Keep it simple.

So if you take the LSN numbers from DSD+ that the OP posted:

Ch
403 / 2 = 201.5 = 202
404 / 2 = 202
1953 / 2 = 976.5 = 977
1954 / 2 = 977
2289 / 2 = 1144.5 = 1145
2290 / 2 = 1145
? CC

Unless I am totally misunderstanding something or applying it completely wrong.... the database Channel IDs are off. Using the "corrected" LCNs I was able to track the few transmissions on the system this morning. More system activity is needed to confirm.

 

[k2hz]

It appears that some systems use a different method of designating the LCN.
RadioMax in Rochester which is a Hytera system is the higher of the DSD+ LSN pair divided by 2 minus 1.

462.100 LSN 1939/1940 is LCN 969 Slot 1/2 for Uniden
462.475 LSN 1999/2000 is LCN 999 Slot 1/2 for Uniden etc...

 

[pro92b]

I also tracked the system this morning but was using the database LCN's. We are not using the same scanner model - mine is a BCD536HP and yours is a BCD325HP. I hope that Uniden didn't create an issue where the firmware of these two scanners treats TIII differently.

Uniden has caused confusion regarding LCN calculation since DMR support was released.

Here is an early LCN calculation from Uniden.

Manually Determining the LCN for DMR Tier III Systems based on DSD+ Logs
DSD+ combines the LCN and Slot together in the style of MotoTRBO Capacity Plus. This combination was coined as LSN. You
need to divide the lower number by two and ignore the fraction.
1899/1900 would be 949
1941/1942 would be 970
1985/1986 would be 992
Topic revision: r27 - 27 Jul 2016 - PaulOpitz

Here is a newer revision from Uniden.

Manually Determining the LCN for DMR Tier III Systems based on DSD+ Logs
DSD+ combines the LCN and Slot together in the style of MotoTRBO Capacity Plus. This combination was coined as LSN. You need to divide the upper number by two. For newer firmware 1.11.22 or later divide the upper number by four and round up.
1899/1900 would be
950 1941/1942 would be
971 1985/1986 would be 993
Topic revision: r34 - 12 Apr 2017 - PaulOpitz

I don't know what the divide by four reference is but it seems wrong.

Here is the latest revision from Uniden.

Manually Determining the LCN for DMR Tier III Systems based on DSD+ Logs
DSD+ combines the LCN and Slot together in the style of MotoTRBO Capacity Plus. This combination was coined as LSN. You need to divide the upper number by two.
1899/1900 would be
950 1941/1942 would be
971 1985/1986 would be 993
Topic revision: r36 - 29 Jan 2019 - PaulOpitz

In practice when I ran LCN finder the results I got agreed with the first formula from Uniden in topic revision r27. I don't have confidence that the latest revision, r36, is correct.

With the system inactive now this can't be verified until Monday when I hope there is more activity.

 

[GTR8000]

All of this DMR and NXDN crap has given me migraines over the years. I really wish all of these software authors and hardware coders would agree on a common standard, rather than implementing their own interpretation. LCN here, LSN there, DEC in one spot, HEX in another. Gimme a break.

 

[pro92b]

BCD536HP, firmware 1.26.00

Test 1
Track East Mountain site 3 (Highland) with LCN's as below

452.5000 201
462.1875 976
464.0500 1125
464.2875 1144

Result: the scanner did track properly, providing audio and matching DSD+


Test 2
Track East Mountain site 3 (Highland) with LCN's as below

452.5000 202
462.1875 977
464.0500 1126
464.2875 1145

Result: the scanner was silent although DSD+ indicated activity

I would be interested to hear the results with the BCD325P2, particularly the results of the LCN finder. If the 325 tracks using the LCN's in test 2 then the firmware of the two scanners must be divergent.

 

[62Truck]

BCD536HP, firmware 1.26.00

Test 1
Track East Mountain site 3 (Highland) with LCN's as below

452.5000 201
462.1875 976
464.0500 1125
464.2875 1144

Result: the scanner did track properly, providing audio and matching DSD+


Test 2
Track East Mountain site 3 (Highland) with LCN's as below

452.5000 202
462.1875 977
464.0500 1126
464.2875 1145

Result: the scanner was silent although DSD+ indicated activity

I would be interested to hear the results with the BCD325P2, particularly the results of the LCN finder. If the 325 tracks using the LCN's in test 2 then the firmware of the two scanners must be divergent.

I'm updating my 325P2, I'll report back with my findings.

 

[dmurphy78]

I am hearing the system ok on the 436, with the LCN imported from the database here.

The 325 is giving me a problem. It is completely silent and when holding on the control channel (464.0500) it shows "Net0012: S00002" which I assume is supposed to be the System ID and Site number. But DSDPlus and the database here show the System ID as 13 and the Highland site as Site number 3. Also there is no control data audio, just silence and 5 full bars.

I've tried the LCN from the database and the modified LCN above. No luck. I know the scanner can track a Connect + system since I regularly listen to the OneVoice Network and NYCOM MotoTRBO system. The DMR Tier 3 just doesn't seem to work properly on the 325

 

[62Truck]

I am hearing the system ok on the 436, with the LCN imported from the database here.

The 325 is giving me a problem. It is completely silent and when holding on the control channel (464.0500) it shows "Net0012: S00002" which I assume is supposed to be the System ID and Site number. But DSDPlus and the database here show the System ID as 13 and the Highland site as Site number 3. Also there is no control data audio, just silence and 5 full bars.

I've tried the LCN from the database and the modified LCN above. No luck. I know the scanner can track a Connect + system since I regularly listen to the OneVoice Network and NYCOM MotoTRBO system. The DMR Tier 3 just doesn't seem to work properly on the 325

I was just about to post the same about my 325P2. Its showing "Net0012" and "S0002". My 996P2 is displaying the same. I am running the lastest FW on both scanners.

Right now on my 325P2 I am scanning Test 1 and Test 2 with ID search on, and nothing as of yet.

 

[pro92b]

Last year GTR8000 and I had a conversation about the Uniden vs. DSD+ system and site numbering. Here is what he said: "I believe that Uniden has the Site #'s correct, but the NetID wrong, whereas DSD+ has the Site #'s wrong, but the NetID correct."

What's the firmware version in your BCD325?

 

[62Truck]

Last year GTR8000 and I had a conversation about the Uniden vs. DSD+ system and site numbering. Here is what he said: "I believe that Uniden has the Site #'s correct, but the NetID wrong, whereas DSD+ has the Site #'s wrong, but the NetID correct."

What's the firmware version in your BCD325?

Not sure if your question was directed at me or dmurphy.

The FW in my BCD325 is 1.08.01

 

[GTR8000]

Last year GTR8000 and I had a conversation about the Uniden vs. DSD+ system and site numbering. Here is what he said: "I believe that Uniden has the Site #'s correct, but the NetID wrong, whereas DSD+ has the Site #'s wrong, but the NetID correct."

What's the firmware version in your BCD325?

To be honest, at this point I'm not sure which is correct. The DSD+ author is adamant that the software is correct, and that Uniden got it wrong.

Seeing as how T3 scans properly with the x36HP series, but not the 325P2/996P2, I'm not quite sure what to believe anymore. I wonder what the SDS does on this system. My assumption would be that it would have the same results as the x36HP series, but who knows.

So to recap:

DSD+ shows: NetID 13, SiteID 3
325P2 and 996P2 show: NetID 12, SiteID 2

What does the x36HP show the NetID and SiteID as?

 

[pro92b]

Our posts were near simultaneous so I was asking dmurphy. East Mountain is not a busy system these days with the absence of the taxi company that used to be the most active group. By mid-afternoon things slow down quite a bit on the system. Best time for testing this system is morning or early afternoon.

1.08.01 is the latest firmware so it seems that Uniden needs to fix the issue with tier 3 on the BCD325P2 and release new firmware. With essentially no Uniden presence on the forum now, I don't even know what it would take to get their attention. It wouldn't hurt if Uniden corrected their DMR scanning webpage as well since the LSN to LCN conversion seems to be wrong for tier 3.