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Economics of Private trunked systems

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sonm10

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I am just a casual scanner listener but am curious

What is the economics of a plmr trunked system (DMR or NXDN) for leasing for both the provider and the end user? I know there is a lot of infrastructure involved and that cost has to be offset.

I monitor a couple systems ( one DMR, one NXDN) and there is not a lot of users, especially during winter months ( I do know I monitor outlying towers), but I'm assuming more users offset the infrastructure cost? How is this financially beneficial for the provider and the end user? Thanks for any insight.
 
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Tim-B

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I was kind of wondering the same thing myself. I monitor a local DMR trunked system that is owned by a local communications company. This system is one of those where they rent radios to eligible businesses and those radios use that trunked system. I don't hear a whole lot of traffic on that system. 90% of the traffic is from the buses and vans that are used by the local university to transport students from one part of campus to another. Aside from that I hear occasional transmissions by other small businesses but those transmissions are few and far between. I have to wonder if the local radio shop that owns the system is turning a profit from it.
 

CanesFan95

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We have lots of dead Cap+ systems here that sit there almost idle, other than the obnoxious DMR burps. On rare occasion, someone somewhere keys up and says something. No way these companies are making any money.
 

KevinC

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We have lots of dead Cap+ systems here that sit there almost idle, other than the obnoxious DMR burps. On rare occasion, someone somewhere keys up and says something. No way these companies are making any money.

How many users are on your system?

 

KC3ECJ

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We have lots of dead Cap+ systems here that sit there almost idle, other than the obnoxious DMR burps. On rare occasion, someone somewhere keys up and says something. No way these companies are making any money.
The LTR systems and the big NXDN systems are active around me, but the DMR Connect Plus doesn't have much activity.
 

CanesFan95

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How many users are on your system?


Not many users, which is why we're able to allow those private calls. :)
 

Project25_MASTR

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I help maintain several Connect Plus and Capacity Plus systems as a side gig. About two years ago we migrated the last customer off the Privacy Plus system.

For the most part unless you live in an area without general cell service, SMR type systems aren't taking on a ton of new customers in favor of PTToLTE solutions. Existing customers aren't going anywhere though as they see the service as a tax deductible expense (which it is) and since the equipment has already been paid for and installed...they'll keep using it. Did I mention that last Privacy Plus customer we had to force over to Capacity Plus simply because our over the last 10 years 4 out of the 5 Quantro's had died and the 5th was running on exciter power?

Would I build a new system for SMR type use? No...I just can't justify the cost honestly. I might be tempted to take something like an Atlas controller, some conventional Quantars with RIC-M's and hand out some gov-planet surplus Phase 1 radios...but even paying for the Atlas controller is frankly more than I'd want to invest into my infrastructure when I can strike a deal with a carrier to resell a PTT solution with nationwide coverage.

Right now the key business really seems to be aimed at on-prem micro-systems and integrations (indoor asset tracking, ticketing, SCADA, etc).
 

Project25_MASTR

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:oops: That's crazy. Funny, but crazy.

I mean, one of my other "friends" has been running a Privacy Plus system since March of 1997...he's down to his last 4 functional MSF5000's (it was at one time a 28 channel site). I offered to help him migrate his users to Capacity Plus but going out to the site every few weeks picking a repeater at random and putting a .45 into the PA to set it free...
 

mmckenna

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I mean, one of my other "friends" has been running a Privacy Plus system since March of 1997...he's down to his last 4 functional MSF5000's (it was at one time a 28 channel site). I offered to help him migrate his users to Capacity Plus but going out to the site every few weeks picking a repeater at random and putting a .45 into the PA to set it free...

OMG, there's still MSF5000's working? That's a miracle right there. Towards the end, ours needed constant attention. A .45 would have saved us a lot of money.
 

mmckenna

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but I'm assuming more users offset the infrastructure cost? How is this financially beneficial for the provider and the end user? Thanks for any insight.

So, like Project25_MASTR, I run a trunked system. It's for a large agency, but large agencies are like small cities, so it translates pretty well.

I figure I put about $300K into my system. I was able to reuse some items left over from the old system (tower, feedline, etc), but $300K resulted in a new site.
That's a lot of money.
Scale it down to one repeater, like a small business would use, that's still a heck of a lot of money for Joe-Bob's plumbing service.

So, take Joe-Bob's plumbing, Billy Joe's towing, and 20-30 other small businesses with catchy names and each one needs to put up a single repeater. That's a few million in equipment, radio sites, etc. Most of those repeaters are not being used at any given time. They are sitting idle until Cletus needs a new left handed toilet flange. Then a minute or two of traffic, then nothing...

Or take a trunked system, Take 6-7 repeaters, hook them up to a trunk controller. Give those 30+ business a talk group on the system. Now instead of a million or so bucks in repeaters, Matt's repeater service sunk $300K into the trunked system. He sells each company a talkgroup (or two) on the system at $12.50/radio per month. Oh, and that same guy sells them the radios.

Now each company gets what they need without the huge upfront investment and ongoing maintenance. Those costs are spread amongst 30+ companies. Due to the nature of the trunked system and channel loading, each company thinks they have their very own private radio system. But those of us in the know understand that we're just reselling the unused airtime to a bunch of different users and laughing all the way to the bank. (not really…)

So, a trunked system just spreads the cost around to a lot of users. The channel loading calculations make it so 99.99% of the time, the system has free space to support a user. Periodically (a few times a year) someone keys up and gets bonked because there is no repeater available. Wait 5 seconds for a user to unkey, and it's freed up.

So, my $300K spread across 450+ users with each radio paying about $12.50/month covers all my costs, salary, electricity, spare parts, emergency repairs, cold beer, etc.
And each of those companies is happy that they don't have to pay $100K + for their own repeater, plus all the costs of upkeep, repairs, electricity, deal with licenses, etc. They get to spread that $12.50 a month out and it's not such a big investment.

Of course, as others have pointed out, cellular has taken a HUGE bite out of those systems. Most people don't want to carry a radio around when they can do essentially the same thing on their cell phone. And who can blame them. 99.9% of the time, the cellular system works just fine, and has way better coverage than a trunked radio system will for most users. The costs are cheaper, plus you can play angry birds on your phone, but not on your radio.

The benefit to the trunked system is that it can be designed to be more reliable than a cellular system. It can provide coverage into areas where the cell carriers think there are not enough users to justify the cost of building out a cell site. And you can control access to you limit access to just those that need access, and not every kid with an iPhone trying to stream Tic-Tok videos.

The truth is that as cellular systems grow and there's more and more bandwidth, they are a much better solution for many non-public safety users. You can do a lot more with a cell phone than you can with a radio, and the costs of the infrastructure get spread out across more and more people.

Your milage may vary, void where prohibited, not valid in some states, and sure to piss someone off.
 

buddrousa

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To add to what mmckenna said is you have to make the investment and get it running before you can rent it. Now of course you can add to the system and make it bigger but it needs to be big enough to start with. Plus now you have a system for your own use and you get to have a tax write off also.
 

900mhz

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So, like Project25_MASTR, I run a trunked system. It's for a large agency, but large agencies are like small cities, so it translates pretty well.

I figure I put about $300K into my system. I was able to reuse some items left over from the old system (tower, feedline, etc), but $300K resulted in a new site.
That's a lot of money.
Scale it down to one repeater, like a small business would use, that's still a heck of a lot of money for Joe-Bob's plumbing service.

So, take Joe-Bob's plumbing, Billy Joe's towing, and 20-30 other small businesses with catchy names and each one needs to put up a single repeater. That's a few million in equipment, radio sites, etc. Most of those repeaters are not being used at any given time. They are sitting idle until Cletus needs a new left handed toilet flange. Then a minute or two of traffic, then nothing...

Or take a trunked system, Take 6-7 repeaters, hook them up to a trunk controller. Give those 30+ business a talk group on the system. Now instead of a million or so bucks in repeaters, Matt's repeater service sunk $300K into the trunked system. He sells each company a talkgroup (or two) on the system at $12.50/radio per month. Oh, and that same guy sells them the radios.

Now each company gets what they need without the huge upfront investment and ongoing maintenance. Those costs are spread amongst 30+ companies. Due to the nature of the trunked system and channel loading, each company thinks they have their very own private radio system. But those of us in the know understand that we're just reselling the unused airtime to a bunch of different users and laughing all the way to the bank. (not really…)

So, a trunked system just spreads the cost around to a lot of users. The channel loading calculations make it so 99.99% of the time, the system has free space to support a user. Periodically (a few times a year) someone keys up and gets bonked because there is no repeater available. Wait 5 seconds for a user to unkey, and it's freed up.

So, my $300K spread across 450+ users with each radio paying about $12.50/month covers all my costs, salary, electricity, spare parts, emergency repairs, cold beer, etc.
And each of those companies is happy that they don't have to pay $100K + for their own repeater, plus all the costs of upkeep, repairs, electricity, deal with licenses, etc. They get to spread that $12.50 a month out and it's not such a big investment.

Of course, as others have pointed out, cellular has taken a HUGE bite out of those systems. Most people don't want to carry a radio around when they can do essentially the same thing on their cell phone. And who can blame them. 99.9% of the time, the cellular system works just fine, and has way better coverage than a trunked radio system will for most users. The costs are cheaper, plus you can play angry birds on your phone, but not on your radio.

The benefit to the trunked system is that it can be designed to be more reliable than a cellular system. It can provide coverage into areas where the cell carriers think there are not enough users to justify the cost of building out a cell site. And you can control access to you limit access to just those that need access, and not every kid with an iPhone trying to stream Tic-Tok videos.

The truth is that as cellular systems grow and there's more and more bandwidth, they are a much better solution for many non-public safety users. You can do a lot more with a cell phone than you can with a radio, and the costs of the infrastructure get spread out across more and more people.

Your milage may vary, void where prohibited, not valid in some states, and sure to piss someone off.
Not to mention that with cellular, a business has a way to contact a customer (I'm on the way and will be there in 20 mins) or call a parts supply house type thing. You can't do that with a trunking radio.
 

sonm10

Central MN Monitor
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So, like Project25_MASTR, I run a trunked system. It's for a large agency, but large agencies are like small cities, so it translates pretty well.

I figure I put about $300K into my system. I was able to reuse some items left over from the old system (tower, feedline, etc), but $300K resulted in a new site.
That's a lot of money.
Scale it down to one repeater, like a small business would use, that's still a heck of a lot of money for Joe-Bob's plumbing service.

So, take Joe-Bob's plumbing, Billy Joe's towing, and 20-30 other small businesses with catchy names and each one needs to put up a single repeater. That's a few million in equipment, radio sites, etc. Most of those repeaters are not being used at any given time. They are sitting idle until Cletus needs a new left handed toilet flange. Then a minute or two of traffic, then nothing...

Or take a trunked system, Take 6-7 repeaters, hook them up to a trunk controller. Give those 30+ business a talk group on the system. Now instead of a million or so bucks in repeaters, Matt's repeater service sunk $300K into the trunked system. He sells each company a talkgroup (or two) on the system at $12.50/radio per month. Oh, and that same guy sells them the radios.

Now each company gets what they need without the huge upfront investment and ongoing maintenance. Those costs are spread amongst 30+ companies. Due to the nature of the trunked system and channel loading, each company thinks they have their very own private radio system. But those of us in the know understand that we're just reselling the unused airtime to a bunch of different users and laughing all the way to the bank. (not really…)

So, a trunked system just spreads the cost around to a lot of users. The channel loading calculations make it so 99.99% of the time, the system has free space to support a user. Periodically (a few times a year) someone keys up and gets bonked because there is no repeater available. Wait 5 seconds for a user to unkey, and it's freed up.

So, my $300K spread across 450+ users with each radio paying about $12.50/month covers all my costs, salary, electricity, spare parts, emergency repairs, cold beer, etc.
And each of those companies is happy that they don't have to pay $100K + for their own repeater, plus all the costs of upkeep, repairs, electricity, deal with licenses, etc. They get to spread that $12.50 a month out and it's not such a big investment.

Of course, as others have pointed out, cellular has taken a HUGE bite out of those systems. Most people don't want to carry a radio around when they can do essentially the same thing on their cell phone. And who can blame them. 99.9% of the time, the cellular system works just fine, and has way better coverage than a trunked radio system will for most users. The costs are cheaper, plus you can play angry birds on your phone, but not on your radio.

The benefit to the trunked system is that it can be designed to be more reliable than a cellular system. It can provide coverage into areas where the cell carriers think there are not enough users to justify the cost of building out a cell site. And you can control access to you limit access to just those that need access, and not every kid with an iPhone trying to stream Tic-Tok videos.

The truth is that as cellular systems grow and there's more and more bandwidth, they are a much better solution for many non-public safety users. You can do a lot more with a cell phone than you can with a radio, and the costs of the infrastructure get spread out across more and more people.

Your milage may vary, void where prohibited, not valid in some states, and sure to piss someone off.
I was hoping you would post. Yes, I understand the basics of trunking, but when you have five companies and maybe 90 radios, it is a lot lower return for your investment. It takes longer for the investment to start paying for itself.

Your example: 4.5 years asset turnover
Lets say 90 radios: 22 year asset turnover (Yes, I'm a math guy)

Question: how does this apply to multi-site trunking?
 

tweiss3

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I was hoping you would post. Yes, I understand the basics of trunking, but when you have five companies and maybe 90 radios, it is a lot lower return for your investment. It takes longer for the investment to start paying for itself.

Your example: 4.5 years asset turnover
Lets say 90 radios: 22 year asset turnover (Yes, I'm a math guy)

Question: how does this apply to multi-site trunking?
The same, except your investment and operating costs are multiplied by the number of sites, plus the cost to get the backbone to link sites + failsafe links (microwave, etc.)
 

mmckenna

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I was hoping you would post. Yes, I understand the basics of trunking, but when you have five companies and maybe 90 radios, it is a lot lower return for your investment. It takes longer for the investment to start paying for itself.

Your example: 4.5 years asset turnover
Lets say 90 radios: 22 year asset turnover (Yes, I'm a math guy)

Question: how does this apply to multi-site trunking?

Yeah, making it pay off on larger systems/multiple sites and/or less subscribers is a challenge. You can increase the cost of the system access to the end users, but at some point you'll drive them off.
You can put off maintenance and hope the system holds up.
You can try to cram more users on less talk paths.
You can increase subscriber base.
You can run other services (low speed data, GPS location, etc)

But it is a challenge when Cellular can be cheaper, have a lot more coverage and gives a lot more features.
I think the days of non-public safety trunk systems are numbered and we'll see less and less of them as time goes on. Some will remain.

The reason I run one is because I can provide better coverage than the cell carriers in my area, and I can build out the system to meet our specific needs as to power backup, reliability, flexibility, etc. Other than that, no reason it couldn't be replaced with cellular for most casual users. I have seen traffic drop over the last 20 years of running the system, although I have more subscribers than I did back then.

As for cellular, they may talk about emergency use, but in most cases, providing coverage/service is a 'best effort' sort of thing. When you push on the cell carriers, they'll avoid promising anything about reliability and system uptime. And unless you are running some sort of priority pre-emption, it's you against everyone else for bandwidth. There are absolutely some situations where that is a problem, and there are some solutions to that, but not usually for non-public safety users.
 

12dbsinad

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PTT over LTE is going to replace private LMR trunking systems. In my area it's taking ahold by storm and the radio companies are tickled pink. More profit, less overhead, no upkeep, nationwide coverage, built-in GPS, no capacity limits, no firmware update BS to deal with, easy mobile install, etc, etc etc. That's my take on it.
 
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