edacs - need help

[lynzoid]

hiya all!

can someone put me in the right direction ?

I have unknown 800mhz EDACS-W system here. I want to find all LCN/Freq pairs.
Got PSR-500 as well as 3 different receivers (800mhz capable).

so far i have:
865.075 - C01 S:04 Hsa
865.125 - C01 S:05 Hsa
865.850 - C05 S:01 Hsa
865.375 - C07 S:02 Hsa

What do i make out of this ?
Also have Unitrunker running ok.

Any help will be appreciated... I also found one UHF Edacs-N system, but it's almost inactive. I want to sort out 800 one first.

Thank you

 

[Deeke]

The easiest way that i have found to get the LCN's for EDACS is to run unitrunker and use the search mode from your scanner.
Remember, on EDACS, they always go lcn 1 to the next. So If yo have 20 ch's they would rotate from 1-20. I know it takes time but, it's the only way i know of.
Take note of the radio ids in unitrunker and follow the conversation as it progresses and note the lcn# vs the scanner frequency.

 

[SCPD]

Try looking up your system on the RadioReference database. Failing that .. you should be able to get all the frequencies and then if you have multiple scanners then you should be able to figure it out.

 

[Mike_G_D]

hiya all!

can someone put me in the right direction ?

I have unknown 800mhz EDACS-W system here. I want to find all LCN/Freq pairs.
Got PSR-500 as well as 3 different receivers (800mhz capable).

so far i have:
865.075 - C01 S:04 Hsa
865.125 - C01 S:05 Hsa
865.850 - C05 S:01 Hsa
865.375 - C07 S:02 Hsa

What do i make out of this ?
Also have Unitrunker running ok.

Any help will be appreciated... I also found one UHF Edacs-N system, but it's almost inactive. I want to sort out 800 one first.

Thank you

I'm certainly not an expert on trunking protocol, far from it! But, I believe I can interpret the above as

865.075 - Control on Channel 1, Site 4
865.125 - Control on Channel 1, Site 5
865.850 - Control on Channel 5, Site 1
865.375 - Control on Channel 7, Site 2

With the EDACS systems I have monitored the control channel will move through the allocated frequencies/channels daily. So, if you monitor long enough, by looking at the info as above I think you can eventually get all of the frequencies and channel numbers for each system.

-Mike

 

[mtindor]

I did a Google search for EDACS +Moscow. I see reference that Moscow is supposed to have an EDACS system in place since 1997 for various public service entities. I'm going to guess that what you are logging is this system...

Ericsson sells radio system to Moscow. | Europe > Eastern Europe from AllBusiness.com

From what you show, it looks like its a single system with multiple sites [networked]. As others have mentioned, there is no "easy" way to determine all of the active frequencies on each site other than regularly scanning the system for new LCNs associated with each site.

The few EDACS systems I have monitored do rotate control channels, but not always daily - perhaps weekly. And, there is no guarantee that they will rotate. For your sake, I hope they do rotate frequently - as that will help you to identify known frequencies for each site in the networked system.

What I would suggest [and ask of you] is that you submit any information you know about this site to the RRDB. Once it is listed, perhaps more people from Moscow will see information about it on these forums and will post information. Then, as you identify new frequencies associated with each of the sites, you ccan submit that information. Sure, it benefits everyone else when you submit it - but it also benefits yourself because having that documented in the format set up in the RRDB is very useful - very easy to read and make sense of.

You should log:
a. frequencies seen, the LCNs (i.e. C:07) and the Site (i.e. S:02). And if you are running Unitrunker, then you can attempt to log talkgroups active on the system. Obviously you won't be able to track mucch until you monitor multiple frequencies per site and are able to add them to your scanner as an actual system in the proper way.

Hopefully we can be of help to you, over time. I'm not sure how well you understand English, but hopefully well enough that our suggestions can help you out.

I'd recommend using one scanner to track the trunking channels on the system and then use another scanner to actually start attempting to program in the individual sites. Or if your other receivers are not sccanners, perhaps you might want to use one of those receivers (with a discriminator tap) to scan/monitor control channels and then use your PSR to attempt to track the sites once you get enough frequencies.

Mike

 

[lynzoid]

hiya and thanks for replys ! i do understand english very well, thank you.

currently i see my setup as such:
I put my Optoelectronics Optocom + Unitrunker on CC1 Site4;
I put my PSR500 on fast limit search in this freq range, EXcluding all active CC's - to look for conversations.
As soon as i see data on CC indicating talkgroup activity on for ex. LCN3 - i start searching for voice frantically and log found freq as LCN3 ->
Repeat all that until i found all LCN/Freq pairs. Correct ?

OR, in case of rotating CC's, i just log changes in CC freqs to find out some more LCN/Freq pair.

I assume that is correct way. Now onto setup of this 'rig'

 

[lynzoid]

ok, after 2 hours, i came to conclusion, that this 800mhz edacs-w is aegis/provoice.
I was unable to hear even one analog voice conversation, although i hear plenty digital traffic.

Now onto 480mhz edacs-n system. Already took one site:
4xx.1625 - C01 S:05 - INVERTED CC
And started to scan around + monitoring CC activity on Unitrunker.

Ok, this system switches channels awful fast, BUT i was able to get some voice chans.
Unitrunker displays that All in All this system have 4(5?) LCNs (?)

LCN 0 (displayed by UT) - unknown
LCN 1 - CC
LCN 2 - 4xx.5625
LCN 3 - 4xx.6125
LCN 4 - 4xx.5375

I got all this into PSR500 and now i can see activity, and even hear some conversations, but i am sure i am missing lots.
There's more CC's around there, with different Site numbers. Can each site have different LCNs/freqs ?
How do i program multisite EDACS-N system into PSR?

I know, too many question, but i am surely getting there !

Thanks
P

 

[lynzoid]

addition: this site 05 is only have above LCN/freqs. I can hear all conversations on that site.
Many telemetry data talkgroups threw me off at first. Now i have already 2 voice talkgroups and happy that i did it.
Anyways, other question stands - how do i program multisite system ? as separate systems ?

 

[mciupa]

how do i program multisite system ? as separate systems ?

Yes they must be programmed separately for EDACS.

 

[lynzoid]

interesting - on CC of neighboring site i can see same activity, same TGPs, BUT channels are numbered as 1,2,5,6,8.
Can different sites share channels ?
Will observe more and add data later - have to take a break

 

[lynzoid]

LCN4 on first site equals LCN1 on second site..
hmm...

 

[fmon]

LCN 0 (displayed by UT) - unknown

EDACS systems do not use LCN 0.

 

[mtindor]

EDACS systems do not use LCN 0.

True, Frank - but he's not hallucinating. There is one site in the AEP Networked system that I canhear that always shows a 0 LCN (obviously it's not a frequency - i forget what it is, but the 0 not a figment of his imagination heh).

Mike

 

[mtindor]

LCN4 on first site equals LCN1 on second site..
hmm...

Hmm, sounds like those sites are in close enough proximity to you [but perhaps far enough from each other that they do not interfere with each other].

Remember, most of us on here are used to how things are done in different parts of the world. I don't know how things work in Moscow area. But it's very possible that you'll find frequencies in use on some sites being used also on other sites. I haven't seen it here, but there is no technical reason for it not to happen as long as th esystem is designed to not have any of those frequencies on neighboring sites active at the same time.

Sorry to hear about the 800 Mhz EDACS being Aegis/Provoice. At least you have found one you can monitor

Like others said above, you have t program EDACS systems as separate TSYS objects and therefore are going to have unique sets of talkgroups for each.

Sounds like you're having a lot of fun!

mike

 

[lynzoid]

ok, i got second site sussed out, except there's some confusion (of course).
The second site as follows:
LCN1 - 4xx.5375 - same as site one's lcn3 OR read below
LCN2 - 4xx.2825 - currently CC
LCN5 - 4xx.6
LCN6 - 4xx.8625
LCN8 - 4xx.175

Ok, i am confused. Some talk freqs are mirrored on diff freqs. So my task now is to separate mirror chans to proper Sites. For ex. i am trying to find if any freq mirrors LCN1 on site 2 so i get separate LCNs pairs for each tower.
phew

and on both sites there are same talkgroups present - 22,26,27,29. They are mostly data. But site one have for ex. group 120,190 and site two have 110,130 - uniques

 

[mtindor]

Now, about having fun - oh yea, i am.
See picture below to check out 'how we roll in moscow'. Don't judge to harshly please.

No judging from me.... if you're having fun, that's what counts. incidentally, my listening area usually looks something similar to that. If I have to worry about keeping everything neat and orderly, that takes more than half the fun out of it rofl. No alcohol here, unfortunately.

ok, i got second site sussed out, except there's some confusion (of course).
The second site as follows:
LCN1 - 485.5375 - same as site one's lcn3 OR read below
LCN2 - 485.2825 - currently CC
LCN5 - 484.6
LCN6 - 484.8625
LCN8 - 485.175

Ok, i am confused. Some talk freqs are mirrored on diff freqs. So my task now is to separate mirror chans to proper Sites. For ex. i am trying to find if any freq mirrors LCN1 on site 2 so i get separate LCNs pairs for each tower.
phew

and on both sites there are same talkgroups present - 22,26,27,29. They are mostly data. But site one have for ex. group 120,190 and site two have 110,130 - uniques

This is not uncommon. You have multiple sites in one networked system. Within that system, users can likely roam from site to site - and if you have users (we'll call them Serge and Billy Bob) who are within range of site A and their home talkgroup is 22, then when a user within range of Site 3 (such as Vladimir, or George Bush) talks on talkgroup 22 the conversation [voice / data] is carried over to site 1 so Serge and Billy Bob can communicate with Vladimir or George) Billy Bob and Vladimir could be 500 miles away from each other, with multiple sites [or hardwired links] between them that allow the sites to be networked.

Sounds like you'd be listening to either some utility company (power co perhaps) with a lot of telemetry (the power companies around here send a lot of telemetry over the EDACS system), or maybe its just other mobile radio data - maybe a police department or some city services.

I'll be anxious to see your submissions to RR, if you do submit them. Would be nice to see what kind of trunked systems are lingering around in your area.

Mike

 

[lynzoid]

I will start submitting to DB as soon as i get everything neat.

And my patience today was rewarded - one trolley-bus driver went out to his route without his brakes checked, and rear ended some car or truck, while having passengers onboard. Trouble. Nobody was hurt, but conversations were frantic to say the least lol.

I also guessed, that it's kind of system, which have hardline links to broadcast certain (!) talkgroups over different areas. From my position i can get 4 out of 5 sites. Will get back to them soon.

And, for first time edacs expririence - them channels are switching awful fast! Not like TypeII systems i used to.

 

[lynzoid]

ok, main confusion.
lets take site2 and assume that lcn1 of it = lcn4 of site 1.
using UT on s2 cc i can see that tgp activity on lcn1 is really heard on it. BUT
during some calls i can hear only carrier (clean), but if i search nearby i GET this call in voice, BUT corresponding freq found is NOT lcn1 of site2 (no corresponding activity)....

 

[mtindor]

And, for first time edacs expririence - them channels are switching awful fast! Not like TypeII systems i used to.

Yeah, probably using transmission trunking. Same thing on the EDACS systems I use.

Explanation: Message, Transmission, and PTT-ID Trunking

Mike

 

[lynzoid]

ok, main confusion.
lets take site2 and assume that lcn1 of it = lcn4 of site 1.
using UT on s2 cc i can see that tgp activity on lcn1 is really heard on it. BUT
during some calls i can hear only carrier (clean), but if i search nearby i GET this call in voice, BUT corresponding freq found is NOT lcn1 of site2 (no corresponding activity)....

still baffled by this... lets say tgp 110 (voice) have comms.
these tgp comms is only announced by site1 (also i have site5). site1's lcn1 = site5's lcn4. for sure.
when conversation hops to lcn1, squelch opens and i can hear Empty clean carrier(no voice). I use second receiver to srch range fast and find it on 484.9 and 485.5125 or .6125 or .8875. But all these freqs are NOT lcn1 of site1.... I guess they are lcn's of other sites...
But why empty carrier ? Only on certain tgps and only on lcn1 - tgps 22,26 etc are heard fine on lcn1.

currently i do not understand it. i hope that when i'll get to decoding another sites, i will find that tgp 110 exist on them as well, but trunked propertly (no empty carriers), SO then i can lockout tgp 110 on site1.

am i making any sence ?