EDACS Radio ID's Lake County IL - Programing on PSR 500

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12
All,

Having a little trouble with programing individual EDACS Radio IDS mentioned
in the Lake County Il carma profile located at http://www.carmachicago.com/profiles on my PSR 500. I am able to get talk group ID's entered just fine. I get an odd behavior when I program them. Here
are my settings as I would expect to enter the id.

Here is how my TGID format is set in global settings when I program this.
EDACS entries set to DEC in expert settings

Scannable Object setting I am configuring as follows:

TSYS: is set to Lake County and contains relavant EDACS freq list
ID: I am entering given radio ID as mentioned in CARMA Profile see example below
TYPE: is set as Private instead of Group

This is the thing that puzzles me. When I enter the radio ID

Enter what I believe to be the first dispatch console
ID: 00101 is keyed in, represents radio id for one of the Dispatch Consoles listed in the profie. Upon savigin the id is changed to a letter a letter "A" in the ID field. Ok, odd but I accept it.
Save the Object

Dupe the Object

Enter what I believe to be the second dispatch console
ID: 00102, it puts in a letter "A" in the ID field
Save the object

Can someone please help me understand this behavior. have I stumbled on a bug? I would expect
the scanner to treat each of these entries as a unique ID and not a letter "A".

Thank You in advance....
 

RoninJoliet

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2003
Messages
3,044
Location
ILL
I actually answered you on the CARMA board about entering a "ID (talkgroup), but im puzzled as to what a "Dispatch Console #" is, do you mean a ID-talkgroup like 04-101=East Dispatch, thats what we use here on the Will Co Edacs system, seems like your entering "Text' as the letter "A"??...Trying to help...
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12
Specifics on the Edacs behavior....

Ron,

I appriciate your assistance. So When I configure the ID within the TGRP object, I enter 00101. If you look at the carma profile it indicates ID's 00101 - 00105 as what I would call radio ids for dispatch consoles. So taking that to the programing of the TGRP obect:

Global setting ----> Prgm glob, I have seting for TGID set to Dec (other values are Norm, and Hex)

Example of what I am getting when I program a new TGRP for the radio ID of 00101

Program a New TGID:
Set my TSYS= Lake County
Set my TGID= 00101
-----> It is at this point after entering 00101 then hitting <enter> that the value changes to "A"
Set a Tag.
Set TYPE= Private vs Group to indicate individual radio ID.

When I save this it takes....

I then duplicate it, and edit the TGID to be what I would expect to be the next unique radio ID as per the profile. (00102)
------> When I hit enter after keying in the 00102 the value 00102 changes to "A"

The Object saves fine, but I would expect the value to be something other than "A" since two unique decimal values were entered.

I guess it boils down to this:
1. I am misunderstanding how the carma profile reads ( thinking that this is a decimal value when it really represents some other convention, and thus I should be keying in something else? hex, 00-101 for example)

2. This is normal behavior, and becaue I am new to EDACS individual radio ID's just do not understand what is happening behind the scenes?

3. There's a potental bug in the software.

By the way on the latest firmware too....

I appriciate any help you provide and thank you in advance for responding... I may contact GRE with this example, but was checking with other members in the event that they have already come accross the same thing.
 

jerk

Active Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
2,449
Location
jerkville
You need to program the DEC or the AFS Id's
Read the basics of trunking in the Wiki again, then the options for Talk Group ID's in the scanner manual.
The ID's you are trying to program apparent dispatch radio ID's that is what they call dispatch on the radio, it does not ID it to the scanner.
I will say this does not appear to be a bug at all.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12
Newsalan,

I understand that the difference between AFS format and decimal, the Carma Profile lists both Decimal and AFS format for Talk groups, but does not list Dec and AFS format for Radio ID's rather it lists a five just the 5 digit number for the Radio ID. Since it does not specifically denote the id in AFS format I was under the impression it was Dec.

I will try entering it as 00-101 and see where that gets me. I will aslo seek clarifying information from Carma group on the inconsistency of the convention in the profile. Thank you for your assistance.

Mark
 

N9JIG

Sheriff
Moderator
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Messages
4,533
Location
Far NW Valley
Newsalan,

I understand that the difference between AFS format and decimal, the Carma Profile lists both Decimal and AFS format for Talk groups, but does not list Dec and AFS format for Radio ID's rather it lists a five just the 5 digit number for the Radio ID. Since it does not specifically denote the id in AFS format I was under the impression it was Dec.

I will try entering it as 00-101 and see where that gets me. I will aslo seek clarifying information from Carma group on the inconsistency of the convention in the profile. Thank you for your assistance.

Mark
Do not try to program in the Radio ID's, they are only used for those with eTrunker or other specialized software that decodes them. Regular scanners do not use radio ID's, just the talkgroups.
 

jerk

Active Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
2,449
Location
jerkville
Newsalan,
I understand that the difference between AFS format and decimal, the Carma Profile lists both Decimal and AFS format for Talk groups, but does not list Dec and AFS format for Radio ID's rather it lists a five just the 5 digit number for the Radio ID.
Read your message again... Decimal or AFS is the only ID that you need. You will be listening to groups, individual radios only make up the groups. But you can only hear the groups, not the individual radios individually (unless using I-calls). You will hear them one after the other on the Talkgroup.

Radio ID's are not used by scanners. You skipped pages of information and focused on information that will not work, nor is intended to work on a scanner.

Since it does not specifically denote the id in AFS format I was under the impression it was Dec.
I will try entering it as 00-101 and see where that gets me. I will aslo seek clarifying information from Carma group on the inconsistency of the convention in the profile. Thank you for your assistance.
Mark
Here's lets make it simple. Just use the information found in RR database, that is all you need and that is all that will work with your scanner. It is short and simple. The CARMA profile has much more information that you (currently) need.

Again, I suggest reading the basics of trunking on the wiki and the manual.
The following link has some information to get you used to the format of ID's
<http://gtrac.ztn.net/2001/efaq.htm>
 

mikey60

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2003
Messages
3,539
Location
Oakland County Michigan
Read your message again... Decimal or AFS is the only ID that you need. You will be listening to groups, individual radios only make up the groups. But you can only hear the groups, not the individual radios individually (unless using I-calls). You will hear them one after the other on the Talkgroup.

Radio ID's are not used by scanners. You skipped pages of information and focused on information that will not work, nor is intended to work on a scanner.
The PSR-500/600 supports private calls, where you can enter a radio ID and monitor the system for any private calls that include that particular radio ID. This is the area where the OP is having difficulty. I see similar issues here when I attempted to enter a radio ID on an EDACS system. Hopefully this will get fixed in a future update.

Mike
 

RKG

Member
Joined
May 23, 2005
Messages
1,094
Location
Boston, MA
I could be wrong, but I think this OP's issue is a lot simpler, and has to do with how one enters numerals and alpha characters in a PSR-500.

Read the manual at p. 90. To enter numbers, you first enter a 1, to put the device in numbers (vs. alpha) mode. This confused me for a couple of minutes, too.

To enter "123," press: 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 3.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12
Thanks for the Help....

All

First let me say thanks to everyone who responded for taking the time to reply. Second let me further articulate my issue:

I am trying to monitor ICalls - Per the wiki: "Uniden's name for an individual call between two radios or between a radio and a console operator on a Motorola or EDACS trunked radio system.
Also called "Private Call". "

The GRE PSR 500 which I mentioned as my scanner in my post is capable of supporting I-Calls (Radio ID to Radio ID Calls)

I am one to do my research, but am quite new to the ICAll functionality. When one reads info that suggests something should work one way, and finds differently, it causes them to question their understanding of what they read, so my posts were an attempt to get clarification.

Problem:
I am unable to program the individual radio id's into the GRE PSR 500 because the decimal value representing the individual Radio is greater than a number that can be sqeezed into 11 bits. 11bits as referenced by the WIKI is what is used to represent an AFS formated talkgroup or ID. Converting the one of the Decimal values listed in the profile I metioned in previous posts remains cumbersome, pardon the expression (do to the inability to fit 50Lbs into a 20lb sack).

So for all in this chat who have an interest to learn here is what I have come to determine.

1. Depends on how GRE designed the ICALL feature. If GRE is expecting that the Techs of the system mask each Individual radio ID to a value that will fit in 11 bits (current EDACS standard for Talkgourp representation to the scanner, Per Wiki), then my problem is merely that the system is not set up like this. However, as I understand it the PSR 500 should be able to identify individual radio IDs, much like Etrunker and identifiy the id in the data stream.

2. One of the previous posters told me to ignore the radio ID's because they were for use by people who monitor Etrunker. So I'm kinda going out on a limb here but it would seem to me that Etrunker and the scanner are essentially looking at the same data stream, and therefore if the GRE supports Private Calls it should be able to determine the radio ID. After looking at all of the info available to me on the wiki etc, I come to the conculsion that the PSR 500 should be able to except the radio ID value as an entry. I venture to bet that the behavior I am expericing is eitherz:
A. A bug in the software.

B. Or that the developers of the scanner had to cap the value of a radio ID at some value in their implementation, and that the radio ID I am trying to enter exceeds architural design limits of the scanner. I will be posting my question to GRE TECH support to confirm.

3. I am a completly off my rocker and my research skills and understanding of things are just plain poor. In which case poviding links to the exact data I need to digest might be the way to approach assisting a beginner.

I appologize if I am a slow learner, but I view this forum as a what should be a rather acidemic free exchange of knowledge. I expect that everyone did not start out as a master of scanner, or radio electronics when they first began learning and enjoying the hobby.
 

jerk

Active Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
2,449
Location
jerkville
I still don't know what you want to do. I calls are initiated by one person&#8217;s radio to another person&#8217;s radio. They are not radio ID&#8217;s for monitoring radios. They are only necessary for I-calls, and generally most people use a wildcard to receive all of them. And on most systems they are not that common or active. That particular system may not use them at all.

There is a standard used to decode signals; but scanner manufactures don't have to and usually don't implement that into their display capabilities. There is/can be a specific format used only by the scanner manufacturers.

On MA/Com radios they use decimal in the programming. On scanner you have the option of using decimal or Agency Fleet Subfleet.
 
Last edited:

RoninJoliet

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2003
Messages
3,044
Location
ILL
I think most of us are "off our rocker", i welcome new questions on scanners and after 35 years of programming i welcome new learning....I hear and see "ICALLS" on my local EDACS System=Will Co ILL, i press the "Stor" button when they comeup and put the talkgroups in the scanner...They show up as 394A-346A...Some are repeated but most come back as new IDs.....I program all my scanners by hand-Uniden396,GRE500 and many more cause im really stupid with this computer and downloading stuf...I have a great friend in the area and in the Chicago CARMA scanning club that help me with my weak points....
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12
I still don't know what you want to do. I calls are initiated by one person’s radio to another person’s radio. They are not radio ID’s for monitoring radios. They are only necessary for I-calls, and generally most people use a wildcard to receive all of them. And on most systems they are not that common or active. That particular system may not use them at all.

There is a standard used to decode signals; but scanner manufactures don't have to and usually don't implement that into their display capabilities. There is/can be a specific format used only by the scanner manufacturers.

On MA/Com radios they use decimal in the programming. On scanner you have the option of using decimal or Agency Fleet Subfleet.


To ansswer your question, what am I trying to do? I am trying to take the Radio ID (12300) listed in the Carma Profile for the Lake County EDAC's System found at Http://ww.carmachicago.com/profiles/lakecount.pdf and enter it in my GRE PSR 500, as an ICALL (Private) Call ID. When I do this with one of the IDs (12300) it says Data input Error when using the keypad of the scanner to program. If I hit the buttion to use hex and have the scanner convert the id to hex, I get the same error.

When I take the ID (00101) listed in the profile and enter it into the scanner as an ICALL (Private Call) and try to enter it using the keypad on the scanner(no software programing), the scanner converts the number to a letter A , upon me hitting enter/done, but no data entry error is reported to me, and I can then save the object.

Entering in the ID (00102) as an ICALL (Private Call) as listed in the profile also changes to a letter A when I hit enter / done. The behavior confuses me for three reasons:
1. I totally entered two unique ID's, but still the scanner changes the field to a letter A, when I hit enter/done. I would expect a different vault to be enter like a letter B.

2. Some of the ID's like (12300) can't be entered at all and I get a Data entry error

3. The values in the lower number rages can be entered (00102) and saved, but the field values are not unique.

So I guess when you really boil down the quesiton it is simply this. Is the term Radio ID different when referring to an ICALL, vs when referring to a idvidual radio?

Based on info I've read in the Wiki etc, I am under the impression that the Radio ID is somehting that can be entered to hear radio to radio iniciated converstation. Since the carma profile lists these radio ID's I figured that programing them in would allow me to be able to monitor Private (Radio to Radio conversations vs just the STD talk group conversations). So I think hey this scanner supports this functionality lets enter the ids, but when I begin entering the ID's I come accross the errors, and inconsistencies I mention above.

Am I confusing apples with Oranges when it comes to the term RADIO ID, and ICALL, and if so can you please explain off thread, or provide links to detailed info that will allow me to more clearly understand the difference between an ICALL ID, and a Radio ID, as right now I do not understand how they are different. Which could certianly explain why my scanner reports data entry errors listed above when I try to enter these ID's.

I have know shame in asking the question, and admitting I am confused because I am in the learning process. I also try to do my research, but still find myself confused on the matter at hand. Maybe because I am not asking the question in the right way. Hope this goes to clarifying what I am confused with.


Thank You
 

jerk

Active Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
2,449
Location
jerkville
To ansswer your question, what am I trying to do? I am trying to take the Radio ID (12300) listed in the Carma Profile for the Lake County EDAC's System found at Http://ww.carmachicago.com/profiles/lakecount.pdf and enter it in my GRE PSR 500, as an ICALL (Private) Call ID. When I do this with one of the IDs (12300) it says Data input Error when using the keypad of the scanner to program. If I hit the buttion to use hex and have the scanner convert the id to hex, I get the same error.

When I take the ID (00101) listed in the profile and enter it into the scanner as an ICALL (Private Call) and try to enter it using the keypad on the scanner(no software programing), the scanner converts the number to a letter A , upon me hitting enter/done, but no data entry error is reported to me, and I can then save the object.

Entering in the ID (00102) as an ICALL (Private Call) as listed in the profile also changes to a letter A when I hit enter / done. The behavior confuses me for three reasons:
1. I totally entered two unique ID's, but still the scanner changes the field to a letter A, when I hit enter/done. I would expect a different vault to be enter like a letter B.

2. Some of the ID's like (12300) can't be entered at all and I get a Data entry error

3. The values in the lower number rages can be entered (00102) and saved, but the field values are not unique.

So I guess when you really boil down the quesiton it is simply this. Is the term Radio ID different when referring to an ICALL, vs when referring to a idvidual radio?

Based on info I've read in the Wiki etc, I am under the impression that the Radio ID is somehting that can be entered to hear radio to radio iniciated converstation. Since the carma profile lists these radio ID's I figured that programing them in would allow me to be able to monitor Private (Radio to Radio conversations vs just the STD talk group conversations). So I think hey this scanner supports this functionality lets enter the ids, but when I begin entering the ID's I come accross the errors, and inconsistencies I mention above.

Am I confusing apples with Oranges when it comes to the term RADIO ID, and ICALL, and if so can you please explain off thread, or provide links to detailed info that will allow me to more clearly understand the difference between an ICALL ID, and a Radio ID, as right now I do not understand how they are different. Which could certianly explain why my scanner reports data entry errors listed above when I try to enter these ID's.

I have know shame in asking the question, and admitting I am confused because I am in the learning process. I also try to do my research, but still find myself confused on the matter at hand. Maybe because I am not asking the question in the right way. Hope this goes to clarifying what I am confused with.


Thank You
Ok I'm no expert either, and even less so on Edacs systems. I know Motorola ones better and I can practice with those.

The ID you listed comes out 300C in hex. (Base 16) So that should be the number you want to enter, I used windows calculator.

If you are getting an A, it sound like you are in the alpha tags portion of the scanner instead of the ID or TG portion.

Yes ID's are different I know this is so on Motorola's, there is a 7 added to the radio ID. I don't know what EDACS systems do or if they add the extras digit for icalls like the Motorola's do.

There must be a reason you want specific ID's. And all I'm interested in is a solution, don't care what you monitor. So if you set a wildcard, you will receive all of them and then you can lock out the ones you don't want to monitor. Sort of like collecting them all, then throwing out the ones you don't want or need. That approach might be easier. But you'll have to listen to all icalls until you get the ones you want edited. But they will be formated and in the radio with minimum of fuss and work.
 

Thayne

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
May 1, 2002
Messages
2,144
Don't know if this is relevant but I noticed when my 600 displays I calls; (all programmed as wildcard, private) it show the radio ID(s) as Hex, as the above post would agree with that.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12
For all who are interested, this issue is now resolved. I logged a ticket with GRE support. In the interest of helping others learn I have posted the results, and additional findings... We will now see if this system gets ICALLS. Setting the scanner for wildcards is easier, but I now fully understand data entry for ICALLS, and the oddities of the user interface when programming from the scanner. I also made a suggestion to GRE to move the <TYPE> Parameter ahead of the <TGID> parameter so that others might not incurr the same problem in the future.


Enclosed is my question to support

------------------------------------------------
Paraphrased submission to GRE Support
------------------------------------------------

Hello,

I recently purchased one of your GRE PSR 500 radios. Updated to Lastest CPU, and DSP Firmware. I am trying to monitor ICALLS on an EDACS system in my area. Specifically the Lake County IL EDACS system. A local radio monitoring assoication has a profile that details the Lake County system. The info on the Lake County system can be found at http://www.carmachicago.com/profiles/LakeCounty.pdf

My problem is I am unable to get the PSR 500 to accept some of the radio ID's listed in the profile.

Basically I experience the following behavior when I enter one of the Radio ID's listed in the Carma Profile. My example is based on the following id (12300) in the carma profile, and as my understanding has it used to represent one of the sheriffs radios on the system.

TSYS is configured with proper LCN numbers for this EDACS system and named "LK County"
Create New TGRP ID using keypad
Select Scan List: 03*
Select TSYS: "Lk County"
Select ID: 12300
Select Type: Private

Select Done ----> Value/Format Err Go Back?
Try same thing using Hex key -----> Value/Format Erro Go Back?

So based on my understanding of how this should work, the scanner should be able to identify the keyed in Radio ID by its designation as private, and moitor for it in the data stream the scanner is recieving from the transmission?

So why is the scanner not taking the radio Id entry? Does this radio ID (12300) exceed some internal limit you have set in the scanners architecture? Is this a bug? Is my misunderstanding of how the ICALL feature should work correct?

It seems to me that the scanner will only except a Radio ID for an ICall up to the limit of the 11 bits. Please assist a beginner who has tried to do his research and is coming up empty understanding why I am reciving this behavior from the scanner.

Kind Regards,
Devoted Owner

---------------------------
Support Response
---------------------------

Hi Mark,

I was able to get 12300 to enter, but first I had to scroll past the ID to Type and set Type to Private, then when I scrolled back up to ID I was able to enter 12300 successfully. When I tried to enter it with the TGRP set to Type:Group it would not work. Let me know if this works for you.

Regards,

Jack
GRE Support Team

------------------------------------------------------------------------
In testing the recommendataion I also discovered the following:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also found that all ICall/Private calls must be entered in HEX. Using the keypad to enter hex is kinda trickey. To do this once you are in the TGID field, you must immediatly do the following:

Push F3 to enter hex mode
Enter all numbers even leading zeros See example for (12300 = 300c in Hex):
Scanner expects six places so it is expecting you to enter ---> 00300C
So one must Push the following key sequence 101013101023
Press 1 then Press 0 to get the first 0
Press 1 then Press 0 to get the second 0
Press 1 then Press 3 to get the 3
Press 1 then Press 0 to get the 0
Press 1 then Press 0 to get the 0
Press 2 then press three to get C

I knew about the oddities of entering numeric/alphas because of tag ids, but the two main things that thru me were that the scanner exected you to enter the value including leading zeros, and that you could only enter ICALL ID's in Hex.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top