Emergency Communications Down Area Wide

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mike_s104

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12/12/09 ~ 2100 -- Apparently there is a Verizon network issue that had caused all EOCs to be without data communications. This seems to include Berkeley Co. WV, WV State PD in Charles Town (Jefferson Co WV), Frederick Co. MD, Washington Co. MD and who knows who else. WVSP was finally able to run a license through Cumberland MD.
 

rdale

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Why would their EOC's be activated? Do those agencies dispatch in the EOC?
 

dwlyons

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The Open Fox network, otherwise known as the LE wired network went down as a result of a downed cable.

The network runs to the different Comm Centers located through out the area.

The EOC's are nothing more than their 911 dispatch centers.
 

mike_s104

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The Open Fox network, otherwise known as the LE wired network went down as a result of a downed cable.

The network runs to the different Comm Centers located through out the area.

The EOC's are nothing more than their 911 dispatch centers.
Understand. You'd think they would have a redundant network connection. Where I work, we have that and we're not anywhere close to a 911 center.
 

dwlyons

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All Open Fox is, is a secure T-1 line.

The backward thinking of WV is what makes me ask questions.

The minute you say WV, everything has to be centered in Charleston. We here in the eastern panhandle are about as far removed from activities in Charleston as we can be.

Speaking on a LE level and the WV IOS, it is a totally useless system for this area. The correct system should have been a coordinated effort between Berkeley, Jefferson, and Morgan Co's in WV, Frederick, Clarke & Loudon Co's in VA, Frederick & Washington Co's in MD and Franklin Co, PA.

Under the WVIOS system, LE can't talk to anyone and the Comm Centers (911) are so poorly trained that they can't even conduct an interconnect without major difficulties.

These "systems" were supposed to improve communications and management of resources. What a joke this has been. In the eastern panhandle all it has done is impede communications and endanger the public in general.

In so far as the state’s thinking, they believe that everything should be control from Charleston, be damned to the rest of the state. It has and will always be that way until someone with a backbone stands up to them.

The entire Open Fox network series’ out from South Charleston at the WV SP Communication Center. They are and have always been “in charge”. Basically it boils down to, in relation to the eastern panhandle, a 300+ mile piece of wire totally unsecured.

A few years back, DC learned about the faults of poor network planning when a contractor in Washington Co, MD accidentally severed a AT&T trunk and shut off the entire enhanced 911 system in Washington for days.

These systems were sold to these departments based on great packaging, not on feasibility. I will guarantee someone somewhere put a large chuck of change in his or her pocket for the future debacle.
 

insiderinfo

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All Open Fox is, is a secure T-1 line.

The backward thinking of WV is what makes me ask questions.

The minute you say WV, everything has to be centered in Charleston. We here in the eastern panhandle are about as far removed from activities in Charleston as we can be.

Speaking on a LE level and the WV IOS, it is a totally useless system for this area. The correct system should have been a coordinated effort between Berkeley, Jefferson, and Morgan Co's in WV, Frederick, Clarke & Loudon Co's in VA, Frederick & Washington Co's in MD and Franklin Co, PA.

Under the WVIOS system, LE can't talk to anyone and the Comm Centers (911) are so poorly trained that they can't even conduct an interconnect without major difficulties.

These "systems" were supposed to improve communications and management of resources. What a joke this has been. In the eastern panhandle all it has done is impede communications and endanger the public in general.

In so far as the state’s thinking, they believe that everything should be control from Charleston, be damned to the rest of the state. It has and will always be that way until someone with a backbone stands up to them.

The entire Open Fox network series’ out from South Charleston at the WV SP Communication Center. They are and have always been “in charge”. Basically it boils down to, in relation to the eastern panhandle, a 300+ mile piece of wire totally unsecured.

A few years back, DC learned about the faults of poor network planning when a contractor in Washington Co, MD accidentally severed a AT&T trunk and shut off the entire enhanced 911 system in Washington for days.

These systems were sold to these departments based on great packaging, not on feasibility. I will guarantee someone somewhere put a large chuck of change in his or her pocket for the future debacle.
What is your definition or reference mean to WVIOS? I haven't heard that term before. Open Fox is the teletype system (NCIC) which is a completely separate system (required by DOJ) and is not part of the WVIRP (radio) system. I am trying to figure out what you mean when you say that dispatch centers are so poorly trained and LE can't talk to anyone that the public is in danger.

If your reference is to the WVIRP, I would strongly disagree with you that Law Enforcement can't communicate and that dispatch centers are so poorly trained that the public is endangered. I think both the dispatch centers in Jefferson and Berkeley have a very high level of interoperability when it comes to their radio systems and are certainly "not totally useless"
 

dwlyons

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WV InterOperability System = You call it potato and I'll call it junk in so far as it's need and usefulness.

It appears you are not as well versed as you may think.

I will grant you that Open Fox is the, what used to be called teletype, but what is now a secure T-1 line to which is dedicated to Comm Center. Yes, it requires a certification from the DOJ. NCIC is nothing more than National Criminal Information Center, a unique address to which a query is directed along the network. Every terminal on the system has a unique address.

In so far as poorly trained, lets look at the operators in Berkeley Co.. You have 2 of which that can't and/or haven't yet mastered the English language in sentence form. You have a 911 enhanced system to which the majority of the roadways in the county were renamed and no one, and I mean no one knows where they are. Every dispatch now required a map page indicator because they have screwed up the locations. LE has to ask 4 and 5 times for directions as a result of the screwed up location system. I called 911 on Saturday and the 911dispatcher had no idea where Rt 9 west of I-81 was and she needed to know the street name. There are good ones, but the skill level for the job has been lowered to nothing.

In so far as inter agency communications, fine Jefferson and Berkeley can talk to each other. How about Washington Co, Frederick Co, Loudon Co., Morgan Co., Frederick Co., VA. Are they not adjoining the eastern panhandle? You reasoning is faulty.

There is no reason for the eastern panhandle to be grouped in the rest of the state. There is no emergency interaction with them.

Be out in the field one night when these minimum wage, un-skilled street hires can't figure out where you are when you give them a location for a Signal 5 or you had better be hoping that the perpetrator to which you are pressuring is headed to Jefferson Co or visa versa. Heaven forbid they would get on I-81, Rt 11, Rt 9 west to Morgan Co., etc.. It takes them 15 – 20 minutes to call or tty the neighboring agencies.

But that's ok, you will never be in that situation. And I am glad I won’t be again. We just need to pray for the officers who are being placed in that position.
 
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mike_s104

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In so far as poorly trained, lets look at the operators in Berkeley Co.. You have 2 of which that can't and/or haven't yet mastered the English language in sentence form. You have a 911 enhanced system to which the majority of the roadways in the county were renamed and no one, and I mean no one knows where they are. Every dispatch now required a map page indicator because they have screwed up the locations. LE has to ask 4 and 5 times for directions as a result of the screwed up location system. I called 911 on Saturday and the 911dispatcher had no idea where Rt 9 west of I-81 was and she needed to know the street name. There are good ones, but the skill level for the job has been lowered to nothing.
Yep, you re 100% correct on this. They still have our street wrong sometimes and dispatch EMS and Fire calls to our "sub-division" even though it hasn't been one for probably 10+ years. One time I called about some a**hole kids on the road with 4-wheelers almost causing numerous accidents. The officer that came out (who was an ass himself) said he wasn't able to do anything since it was a sub-division. I went inside after dealing with "Office Ass" (yes, I know his real name) and looked on WV DoH's website that had it clearly marked with a state route number. The next work day I called the WV DoH and talked to a supervisor that laughed after I told him what the officer said and went on to say they've had our road for 10+ years. I asked if he'd be willing to tell that to the officer or anyone else if they called. He said "sure, I'll tell them the same thing I told you." The following day, I called the Berkeley GIS office. The lady I explained everything to, stopped me 1/2 way and said they are working to correct the mapping to include all state router numbers. I asked if the GIS map online was the same as the 911 center (aka Central), and she said yes. About a week later, I looked on the Berkeley GIS site and our street had a state route number.

Just this weekend, I heard 2 deputies looking for an address somewhere. One couldn't find it at all and was on the correct road. The dispatcher was doing her best to give him directions but it took another deputy to tell him something to look for. He found it and said it didn't look like a road and that maybe DoH needs to put up a sign or something for the next time they needed to go there. What if it was an emergency?

I know the lack of qualified or well/better trained employees comes down to money. The county doesn't have it because what it would have is given to the state who feels it's best to give it to other counties that doesn't bring in as much taxes. A little unfair? I think so...Berkeley and Jefferson get screwed. When the WVIRP was planned, there should have been more money set aside for training and built into the cost of the system.

In so far as inter agency communications, fine Jefferson and Berkeley can talk to each other. How about Washington Co, Frederick Co, Loudon Co., Morgan Co., Frederick Co., VA.
I know Jefferson Co. is able to patch to Loudoun Co. VA (or used to be able to before Loudoun's new system last week). I've heard them do it numerous time. I've once heard Berkeley patch to Washington Co. MD. I've even heard Berkeley and Jefferson both patch their own TAC channel to another inter-agency TG. Even better, I've heard Jefferson patch Loudoun to a TG from the Loudoun system and a Berkeley TAC channel to the same TG as the one Loudoun was patched to. Jefferson did this for a fire in Berkeley Co. From listening long enough, the WVIRP CAN do all of these excellent operations and patches and whatever else, but Berkeley Co. seems to be unable or unwilling to learn to try anything. Why does't the WVSP have all the local county TGs that are patrol in? What doesn't all the BCSO radios have all or most TAC channels for their county? Why doesn't the Berkeley Co. radios have the surrounding county TGs? I don't have a radio, work for the county, or have even held or operated any of the radios. BUT, from listening this is what it sounds like so that's the way it is or there are very few people that know how to operate the radios and system the way it can be utilized. If the radios just need to be updated, DO IT before someone gets hurt or killed. If you can't use it or don't want to use it, it was a waste.

If I'm wrong about anything, then please correct me and explain why I may be wrong.
 
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dwlyons

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Mike,
I to have heard Berkeley and Jefferson communicate with the adjoining counties via the "mutual aide" fire freq. I am unaway of an interconnect with the P-25 systems. Even the MD State Police helo does not have the capability and either has to land and pick up a local LE officer or do a communication patch via a fire freq.. These helo's at one point in time had total area system capability, but no longer.

The system is flawed for usage in the eastern panhandle.

With Washington Co. going to 800 MHz with in a few days, Loudon's change over, VA's P-25 system, and Morgan Co.'s who knows what, the mess just grows.

Packaged properly, you can sell crap. Motorola has always been a leader in packaging.
 

insiderinfo

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Mike,
I to have heard Berkeley and Jefferson communicate with the adjoining counties via the "mutual aide" fire freq. I am unaway of an interconnect with the P-25 systems. Even the MD State Police helo does not have the capability and either has to land and pick up a local LE officer or do a communication patch via a fire freq.. These helo's at one point in time had total area system capability, but no longer.

The system is flawed for usage in the eastern panhandle.

With Washington Co. going to 800 MHz with in a few days, Loudon's change over, VA's P-25 system, and Morgan Co.'s who knows what, the mess just grows.

Packaged properly, you can sell crap. Motorola has always been a leader in packaging.
Reading over your posts on this thread, there are several statements that you have made about the radio systems that are simply inaccurate or untrue.

I can't vouch for your working relationship with Berkeley County Central Dispatch and their operation and perhaps you have an axe to grind with them...that's your beef and therefore will not debate any issues with their field units or their dispatchers.

Berkeley County was the first in the Eastern Panhandle to migrate to the IRP. Jefferson didn't have talkgroups yet so when the Berkeley radios were programmed, the regional talkgroups were only programmed and the radios were deployed to the field without any of the surrounding counties talkgroups. Jefferson has worked with Berkeley County and pretty soon, the Jefferson talkgroups are being put into Berkeley radios.

Washington Co is migrating to UHF P25 trunked radio, not 800 MHz. Loudoun County Law went to P25 last week, and fire/EMS this morning 6 am. Jefferson has the ability to patch to every surrounding County's radio system. Morgan is not on the IRP yet and is working on the planning stages. It's a frequency issue for the sites that serve Morgan Co. MD State Police have the UHF HELO channels programmed in their airships and don't have to land and pick up a radio...that's a ludicrous statement. Every portable in Berkeley and Jefferson have the ability to talk to every helicopter serving the Counties (both law and air ambulance).

Jefferson and Berkeley, as well as all Counties in the DC Metro area have a channel called METRO that gives each county the opportunity to call one another to request mutual aid. These counties don't work operations on this channel; it is only used to request aid. The agency assigns a talkgroup and initiates a patch to the appropriate working talkgroup. Perhaps this METRO channel is what you are calling "fire mutual aide" (sic)? Jefferson and Berkeley have total interoperability on the IRP...something that was not in place prior to Jefferson migrating to the IRP.

Sounds like you were a disgruntled law enforcement officer in Berkeley County...and appears you didn't receive training in the system even though you now believe that you are a subject matter expert on radio systems in the Eastern Panhandle.

I think I'm pretty well-versed in the system. The IRP works pretty well for the Counties and the two Eastern Panhandle Counties on the IRP are able to talk to their surrounding mutual aid agencies...something that wasn't possible until recently.
 

mike_s104

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Not going to get in the middle of either of you, but what you said:

The IRP works pretty well for the Counties and the two Eastern Panhandle Counties on the IRP are able to talk to their surrounding mutual aid agencies...something that wasn't possible until recently.
You're right. I'm sure it's one Hell of a system and does work well. With that said, I don't think "dwlyons" is saying completely that is a piece of crap, only the way it's being used or rather not used. It's not the equipment, but the users that can't do what it was designed for. I'm not sure if you've listened a lot to the Berekely Co. dispatchers, but "dwlyons" is correct in the fact that there are some you wonder how they even got to work that day without major assistance. I think it has in part to do with lack of funding for training and new dispatches being nervous. I can't say I'd be much better but then again I'm not going to do their job for the little pay they receive.

To me, it's like someone buying the biggest, fastest and best computer and only being able to play Solitaire on it.

I think both of you are right but on different information and/or areas.
 

ChartofVirginia

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On both sides of things,

Insideinfo,

If you are going to dig this hole, don't stop, let us know about all of this inside information you have,

I'm sure by your quote about the HELO resource being available to all users of the system, would include the truth about HELO 1 being a Self Quieting frequency to any XTS2500 in UHF. As that HELO 1's frequency of 462.000 is a birdie when any users tunes to the channel making it almost useless as the signal generated internally by the radio cannot be overcome by other RF traffic, poor programming here.

So hearing a bird having to land in order to pick up a ground radio for comm's doesn't sound all that impossible.

I can go on and on if I had only more time to waste . . .

Not one thing I can type though, would inject the amount of logic needed by the people who say they are in charge to accept being wrong or right or how to better help the day to day operations in these localities.
 

kd8omt

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That is the WEAPONS or NCIC computers that went down. they have a dls secured modem that is more like a t3 line that connects them all to so char state police acadamy for running driver lic and plates and what not , the eoc were not down just a computer at the eoc or 911 center. not all counties even have those computers
 

mike_s104

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On both sides of things,

Insideinfo,

If you are going to dig this hole, don't stop, let us know about all of this inside information you have,

I'm sure by your quote about the HELO resource being available to all users of the system, would include the truth about HELO 1 being a Self Quieting frequency to any XTS2500 in UHF. As that HELO 1's frequency of 462.000 is a birdie when any users tunes to the channel making it almost useless as the signal generated internally by the radio cannot be overcome by other RF traffic, poor programming here.

So hearing a bird having to land in order to pick up a ground radio for comm's doesn't sound all that impossible.

I can go on and on if I had only more time to waste . . .

Not one thing I can type though, would inject the amount of logic needed by the people who say they are in charge to accept being wrong or right or how to better help the day to day operations in these localities.
He does that. There was another post he made on the WVIRP thread where he did the same thing. I understand if he can't say any more than he has due to confidentiality agreements. No big deal... I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

That is the WEAPONS or NCIC computers that went down. they have a dls secured modem that is more like a t3 line that connects them all to so char state police acadamy for running driver lic and plates and what not , the eoc were not down just a computer at the eoc or 911 center. not all counties even have those computers
Yes, exactly. If you look at my original post I stated:

12/12/09 ~ 2100 -- Apparently there is a Verizon network issue that had caused all EOCs to be without data communications. This seems to include Berkeley Co. WV, WV State PD in Charles Town (Jefferson Co WV), Frederick Co. MD, Washington Co. MD and who knows who else. WVSP was finally able to run a license through Cumberland MD.
I also stated it was affecting other states (MD for example) so it wasn't specific to the setup that WV has, but probably as a guess, the network it was running on. I would suspect that maybe Verizon has a specific secure network they use for police agencies to connect to their NCIC or whatever else systems specific to them. It may have affected regular DSL users or even more.
 
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