FBI wants records kept of Web sites visited

[N_Jay]

For those of you who are so naïve to think the government is not in complete control of the Internet, I will remind you that this whole notion of sharing information over nationwide computer networks started out as a project from the Department of Defense... no matter what Al Gore would like you to believe! What makes you think they have given up control of it?

Let me see?
Maybe because ever since the Internet when commercial/public it has been controlled by interests well outside the government.
AND
The fact that although the original ARPANET was set up by the DOD it was developed by universities outside the government.

But, what do I know, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

But in reality, "Big Brother" really doesn't care about what the average guy on the street is doing.

And this is the real issue, unless you have paranoid or delusional disorders (Cue Ray-Man) or are actually a spy.

 

[N0IU]

Let me see?
Maybe because ever since the Internet when commercial/public it has been controlled by interests well outside the government.
AND
The fact that although the original ARPANET was set up by the DOD it was developed by universities outside the government.

Your naïveté amuses me! No business or educational institution operates "well outside the government".

Personal income taxes were meant to be temporary, but the 16th Amendment took care of that!

Once the government has something, they tend not to give it back! Just like taxes, they are of the attitude that the money you earn is theirs and what they don't need, they give back to you.

I am sure someone in the federal government woke up one day and said to the commercial ISP's and universities, "We are done using the Internet. You can have it now and do with it what you want."

Oh puh-leeeeze!

I have a fresh pot of Folgers brewing in the kitchen. Too bad you can't smell it!

 

[shaft]

I'm sorry to say this. But you had better back up and re-state your comment. Yes they do in fact read your e-mail messages. If you only knew.

I can easily back this up. I currently work for and have been in the ISP/Carrier industry for over a decade. I do know what gets logged, stored and monitored.

Emails are stored differently per provider, some are 90 days, others indefinately, etc... IM's, well maybe AOL or whoever provides that services keeps a running logging server, I dont know, depends on the provider. We dont log IM conversations or sites you visit and none of the other providers I've worked for in the past have either.

In general, not everything you do is captured and stored by every provider. There is simply not enough storage capacity in the market place to support such activities. There is no point in logging everything either. If the feds want something, there are clear procedures in place to assist them, but we give them what they ask for, nothing more or less.

 

[N_Jay]

Your naïveté amuses me!

And your baseless assumptions amuse the rest of us!

No business or educational institution operates "well outside the government".

As with all general statement they are true of false only by degree.
In regard to the Internet, if you would go and study its history and its architecture you would understand why the "government" does not control it in the way you imply.

Personal income taxes were meant to be temporary, but the 16th Amendment took care of that!

Interesting off topic rant. Thanks for the diversion.

Once the government has something, they tend not to give it back!

Again, a general statement that is true of false only by degrees.
And again, with regard to the Internet, very incorrect.

Just like taxes, they are of the attitude that the money you earn is theirs and what they don't need, they give back to you.

I get it, you don't like taxes.
Now back to our conversation.

I am sure someone in the federal government woke up one day and said to the commercial ISP's and universities, "We are done using the Internet. You can have it now and do with it what you want."

Again, you really need to study its history before you make such bad assumptions.

The "Government" never had control of the Internet, so there was nothing to give back.
The ARPANET was a research project to develop the protocols and architecture required to enable such a network.
The "government" today has more then one IP based network completely independent from the Internet for their needs.

Oh puh-leeeeze!

Yes, Oh pul-leeeze, is the typical response those that have taken the time to learn about these things say to people who run around ranting and raving about the big bad government conspiracy.
Believe me, they screw up plenty in plain sight. You don't need to make up stories.

I have a fresh pot of Folgers brewing in the kitchen. Too bad you can't smell it!

No thanks, enjoying me fresh Peruvian Chanchamayo Full City Roast, brewed 4/3 strong in my Krupp's drip machine with RO filtered water.

Good to the last drop!

 

[N0IU]

The "Government" never had control of the Internet, so there was nothing to give back.

So you don't think that if someone high enough in the "government" said, "Shut it down!" that they couldn't make it happen? Someone needs to read S. 773, Cybersecurity Act of 2009. Read The Bill: S. 773 - GovTrack.us

It happens in China every day!

The technology is the same. The only difference is that the Communists are in charge of one government and we are (supposedly) a representative republic.

 

[shaft]

Except that there isnt a big switch to turn the internet off.

 

[N_Jay]

So you don't think that if someone high enough in the "government" said, "Shut it down!" that they couldn't make it happen? Someone needs to read S. 773, Cybersecurity Act of 2009. Read The Bill: S. 773 - GovTrack.us

It happens in China every day!

The technology is the same. The only difference is that the Communists are in charge of one government and we are (supposedly) a representative republic.

With tinfoil hat firmly in place.

First who is the government going to tell? The major hub owners? And if they did shut down, that would kill inter-node communications, but intra-node and peer-to-peer?
And with most ISPs having multiple access point he traffic will just re-route.
And since a good number of hubs are off-shore much of the traffic will flow around and reenter the US at a different point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_exchange_points_by_size

Maybe you forgot (or maybe you never knew) that the entire purpose for the development of ARPANET was specifically to create a network that could survive the disruption of multiple links and hubs. Of course to know that you would have actually had to study the HISTORY AND ARCHITECTURE which you pretended to know, and I have referred to in previous posts.

China can do it because the Chinese Government IS the ISP. (Duh!)

So there is a law on the books giving the government the ability to request it be shut down.
It has never been implemented and to my knowledge, there are no workable plans or procedures in place should it be attempted.

 

[Kfred]

web sites

Not wanting to throw more paranoia on the fire but; who has control of most of the satellite communications? Big corporations with government contracts. Who has control of the major land based phone lines? Big corporations with government contracts. Still there is no reason for them to shut down the internet this is where a lot of intel comes from. I agree there is not enough storage to keep extensive records, just the ones which fit a certain profile. By the way what was that written in russian at the bottom of the posting by scottaschultz? kfred.

 

[N0IU]

So there is a law on the books giving the government the ability to request it be shut down.
It has never been implemented and to my knowledge, there are no workable plans or procedures in place should it be attempted.

Well then you might as well write your Senators and Representative and tell them to scrap the whole idea because there is no way to shut down the Internet.

By the way what was that written in russian at the bottom of the posting by scottaschultz? kfred.

I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you!

Or...

You could copy it and paste it into Google and find out!

 

[gewecke]

For those of you who are so naïve to think the government is not in complete control of the Internet, I will remind you that this whole notion of sharing information over nationwide computer networks started out as a project from the Department of Defense... no matter what Al Gore would like you to believe! What makes you think they have given up control of it?

But in reality, "Big Brother" really doesn't care about what the average guy on the street is doing. I communicate with a number of people in Russian and Ukrainian so I am probably higher on some sort of "watch list" than most of the people here. And yet, I still sleep very well at night!

Хорошие товарищи удачи!

Those of us who posses "borrowed" intel as a result of military service will ALWAYS be on a watch list.
n9zas

 

[N_Jay]

Well then you might as well write your Senators and Representative and tell them to scrap the whole idea because there is no way to shut down the Internet.

Why.

The busier they keep themselves with meaningless laws the less time they have to screw with the things that really hurt us.

I know, my car stopped going over 55 when they passed hat law. :twisted::lol::twisted:

(I did notice how you did not address any of the facts I presented)

 

[N0IU]

(I did notice how you did not address any of the facts I presented)

I know I will get an infraction for:

a) Posting an off-topic comment
b) Posting something that might be construed as a personal attack

but the bottom line is that I really don't care what you think about this!

Let the chips fall where they may!

 

[C138NC]

Except that there isnt a big switch to turn the internet off.

Id be surprised if the president had a special switch installed on his desk or somewhere other then his "Red" phone to the pentagon... if he declared marshal law or just randomly felt like seeing what the button does... he could just mash that button and Goodbye to the Internet.... Bill gates willl have a fit after saying "Out of all the years it took me to connect everyone in the world.. he has a button to disconnect them all in the US"

 

[tes151]

WASHINGTON--The FBI is pressing Internet service providers to record which Web sites customers visit
and retain those logs for two years, a requirement that law enforcement believes could help it in
investigations of child pornography and other serious crimes.

FBI Director Robert Mueller supports storing Internet users' "origin and destination information,"
a bureau attorney said at a federal task force meeting on Thursday.

As far back as a 2006 speech, Mueller had called for data retention on the part of Internet providers,
and emphasized the point two years later when explicitly asking Congress to enact a law making it
mandatory. But it had not been clear before that the FBI was asking companies to begin to keep logs of
what Web sites are visited, which few if any currently do.

FBI wants records kept of Web sites visited | Politics and Law - CNET News

This should be ignored, and any ISP that complies with something like this should be bankrupt as all their customers leave.

 

[N_Jay]

This should be ignored, and any ISP that complies with something like this should be bankrupt as all their customers leave.

Why?

It seems like the "Packet Age" equivalent to retaining call records.

" Federal regulations in place since at least 1986 require phone companies that offer toll service to "retain for a period of 18 months" records including "the name, address, and telephone number of the caller, telephone number called, date, time and length of the call." "

 

[Squad10]

Here's the stock tip of the day. Buy NICE.

 

[Matthew49ers]

This should be ignored, and any ISP that complies with something like this should be bankrupt as all their customers leave.

Most times it's impossible to switch ISP because there's only 2 broadband ISP, one's DSL the other Cable and more than likely both would comply.

 

[N0IU]

This should be ignored, and any ISP that complies with something like this should be bankrupt as all their customers leave.

That's always a smart business practice to ignore an act of congress!

 

[Kfred]

FBI records

Suppose you are an internet provider and the FBI shows up at your door. They would like you to keep certain records for them. They tell you that the IRS could audit you if you do not comply and that your business could be under investigation for fraud or some other generic charge which could cost you money and time. What would you do? After reading these postings I get the feeling we are going to need all the good luck we can get. Keeping it freindly......kfred.

 

[shaft]

Suppose you are an internet provider and the FBI shows up at your door. They would like you to keep certain records for them. They tell you that the IRS could audit you if you do not comply and that your business could be under investigation for fraud or some other generic charge which could cost you money and time. What would you do? After reading these postings I get the feeling we are going to need all the good luck we can get. Keeping it freindly......kfred.

It doesnt work that way. When a request is made, whether it be from a local P.D. or any of the federal agencies (F.B.I., Secret Service etc..), they have to send a subpoena to our legal group who then sends the request down to pull the records.

Over the years I've worked with a number of the agencies and they have all been friendly and understand the process. We provide what we can, if we cant then no problem.