FCC legality question

[TeRayCodA]

Question:
Can a local law enforcement agency(PD) legally use radios that are used as a "talk-a-round" type setup (car-to-car)?Low power.
Does each officer need to be licensed,or is that already covered through the department?

These guys get bored,put the mic up to the car stereo,and simulcast music back and forth.(not what the FCC smiles on)

The radios they use,they had to buy,out of their own expense,(out of town).The local Motorola shop here that services the departmental repeater,and fleet, would NOT sell to them,or program the radios they bought from the "who-ever".Could be modded ham gear?

Would the FCC issue a departmental license for this freq,as long as there is a"power restriction"?-would'nt these have to be Part Certified under FCC classification?

Most of them are at least 10 watts.
Also,the frequency they are using for the talk-a-round is also in use as a main freq for a police dept. 35 miles east of here.

Look,I know you can't just get something from ebay(like an easily programmable R/S 19-1210),and pick a freq,(besides MURS)and intend to use it!
-And I have heard them talk about VHF radios on ebay..what to "watch"for.

I'm curious.........Is this legal?

 

[Chris-M]

What frequencies have you heard them on? Do they change frequencies once in a while or are they on the same one(s) every time you hear them?

They may be using this method thinking it's their own 'private' (non published PD frequency) not thinking anyone will be scanning and find them, much less care that they're transmitting there. It's most likely unlawful, technically speaking, depending on what band and frequency they're on, and whether they're licensed. Sounds like they're not!

I'd keep it hush-hush..don't complain to the chief..just monitor and enjoy your evesdropping! Ya might hear something good sometime.

8)

 

[SAR923]

Why would any law enforcement agency allow officers to install or carry radios that are not department issue while they are on duty? Forget the FCC. I would think the chief or watch commander would want to have a few words with them about this practice.

 

[RolnCode3]

Might depend on the level of supervision they receive in the field and whether the equipment is mounted in the car (unlikely) or a handheld that they can hide. Either way, it's probably something the agency would frown upon if they were aware. As to whether to report it or not, I can't say one way or the other, but I have my own personal feelings.

 

[N_Jay]

I'm curious.........Is this legal?

It could be, but I doubt it.

They could use MURS legally if it was MURS equipment.

If it is converted ham equipment it is illegal.
If it is on their PD output then it would fall under their license (if they are licensed for talk-around), but the department would have to authorize it.
It would still need to be legal part 90 equipment.

Hmm, cops breaking the law? Interesting concept. "Do what I say, not what I do" Good lesson for people in the community. :roll:

Wonder if they set up a state out using this equipment , if A good lawyer could get the defendant off because of the illegality? (Just a curious?)

 

[zerg901]

A while back on the Indianapolis scanner list there was a lot of discussion about police using business and marine freqs for chit/chat. I think the police commanders finally cracked down on the troops. Peter S

 

[nmfire10]

If the frequency is licensed to the department and it is licensed as a mobile frequency, then they can talk car-to-car on talkaround all they want. That's what it is for. Each officer doesn't need a licence.

 

[N_Jay]

If the frequency is licensed to the department and it is licensed as a mobile frequency, then they can talk car-to-car on talkaround all they want. That's what it is for. Each officer doesn't need a licence.

IF . . . . .

The license covers the NUMBER of units

AND

Teh licensee gives authorization.

AND

They refrain from other illegal activities like music, etc.

 

[nmfire10]

Those are kinda givens, but yet.

 

[K5MAR]

Without meaning to "annoy" anybody in southeast Oklahoma, where Muskogee is located, I'll say that some of the PDs down there have been known in the past to play kinda loose with some of the rules and regs. TeRay, a few more details would be appreciated.

I suspect the Moto dealer doesn't want anything to do with them because he believes they are in violation of FCC Regs, although I do know of some Moto dealers who won't service anything they didn't sell. You mention they are 10+ watt radios, which suggests they are not handheld radios. If so, then perhaps you could get a look in a unit and see what may have been added. Obviously you want to be discrete about this!

Mark S.

 

[DaveNF2G]

FCC regulations permit law enforcement entities to transmit on just about any frequency they want to as long as they do not interfere with anyone who holds a license for the frequency they are using.

 

[TeRayCodA]

About 9 or 10 years ago,they were actually using citizens band ch.39.They would actually talk about who they were watching,and where-(dangerous,stupid,ect..)
The Commander found out about this,and the sh** hit the fan.

I am just guessing about the wattage,as I know how far my MURS mobiles get out,they have to be running at least 10+watts.

All are mobile units with base loaded 5/8 wave antennas.

They are using about 6 channels in the VHF Hi spectrum.(154.xxx to
161.xxx)
The main repeater output is 460.100(departmental issue freq)

I guess I should look at this site's State/County again to see if these freqs are there,I did'nt see them a week ago.
Thanks-

 

[N_Jay]

FCC regulations permit law enforcement entities to transmit on just about any frequency they want to as long as they do not interfere with anyone who holds a license for the frequency they are using.

That is NOT true.

There are some provisions for body-wires and surveillance equipment, but not a general exception.


This thread has lots of good info and even touches on some of the misconceptions.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PrivateWirelessForum/message/16288

 

[TeRayCodA]

As to whether to report it or not, I can't say one way or the other, but I have my own personal feelings.

No, I would'nt blow the whistle,(as long as they don't bother me on 151.820)this seems to be a good tool,as they do really utilize it well.(Sometimes) they do get out of hand w/music.

But,then again,not everybody is "scanner commited"-like me,or has a tower and an antenna that can pull in low power transmissions.Most people I know,just have the stock antenna,and live with the outdated freq list that Rat-Shack gives them.

I was just wondering about everyone else's feedback on this.

 

[N_Jay]

As to whether to report it or not, I can't say one way or the other, but I have my own personal feelings.

No, I would'nt blow the whistle,(as long as they don't bother me on 151.820)this seems to be a good tool,as they do really utilize it well.(Sometimes) they do get out of hand w/music.

I would drop them an anonymous note.

The use of unlicensed frequencies can cause all sorts of problems, even at a distance.

Many cities and counties report intermittent interference that never gets tracked down. Unlicensed operation is one o0f the main causes.

 

[n4voxgill]

FCC Rule 90.20 states: "A police licesee may use, without special authorization from the commission, any mobile service frequency between 40 and 952 MJz, listed in paragraph (c) (3) of this section, for communications in connection with physical surveillance, stakeouts, raids and other such activities. Such use shall be on a secondary basis to operations of licensees regularly authorized on the assigned frequencies. The maximum output power that may be used for such communications is 2 watts. Transmitters, operating under this provision of the rules, shall be exempted from the station identification requirements of 90.425. Use of frequencies not designated by a "PP" in the coordinator column of the frequency table in paragraph (c) (3) of this section, is conditional on the approval of the coordinator corresponding to each frequency."

So there are strict limits on when police can use a non-assigned frequency and may only use 2 watts or less, which means even a handheld has to be modified to reduce output. Also in the rules and on the appliation the police department filed is the requirement that communincations will only be made for official business of the agency.

 

[Voyager]

Question:
Can a local law enforcement agency(PD) legally use radios that are used as a "talk-a-round" type setup (car-to-car)?Low power.
Does each officer need to be licensed,or is that already covered through the department?

These guys get bored,put the mic up to the car stereo,and simulcast music back and forth.(not what the FCC smiles on)

The radios they use,they had to buy,out of their own expense,(out of town).The local Motorola shop here that services the departmental repeater,and fleet, would NOT sell to them,or program the radios they bought from the "who-ever".Could be modded ham gear?

Would the FCC issue a departmental license for this freq,as long as there is a"power restriction"?-would'nt these have to be Part Certified under FCC classification?

Most of them are at least 10 watts.
Also,the frequency they are using for the talk-a-round is also in use as a main freq for a police dept. 35 miles east of here.

Look,I know you can't just get something from ebay(like an easily programmable R/S 19-1210),and pick a freq,(besides MURS)and intend to use it!
-And I have heard them talk about VHF radios on ebay..what to "watch"for.

I'm curious.........Is this legal?

Lots of issues there.

Talkaround are not types of frequencies, per se, they are a mode of operation connected with repeaters. Talkaround is when you talk on the output frequency of the repeater so you 'talk around' the repeater direct - unit to unit. That's where the term came from.

Most licenses for repeaters do include a line on the license for talkaround, but NOT ALL. If there is no line on the license for talkaround, or a separate license, it is illegal operation - period. It is very unlikely a personal license would ever be issued to a non-PD, so the department would almost have to license the frequency.

Broadcast of music is illegal on Part 90 frequencies - PERIOD.

Modded ham gear is illegal on Part 90 frequencies - PERIOD (unless there is imminent endangerment of life or property - AKA a true emergency situation)

Most likely they are guilty of several violations of Part 90 - including operating without a license. Ironic considering these are the same people who cite people for driving without a license.

If they are interfering with the other PD, that's yet another violation. It's the radio equivalent of driving without a license, without indurance, exceeding the speed limit, driving without regard for the safety of others, fleeing from law enforcement and a multitude of other violations.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

So there are strict limits on when police can use a non-assigned frequency and may only use 2 watts or less, which means even a handheld has to be modified to reduce output.

No, they make 2W handhelds and many have low power modes for certain frequencies - it's a programming option. No mods required.

Joe M.

 

[mancow]

Why would any law enforcement agency allow officers to install or carry radios that are not department issue while they are on duty? Forget the FCC. I would think the chief or watch commander would want to have a few words with them about this practice.

I don't even have an issued one. I gave it to a newbie two years ago when all the extras were in the shop and never got it back.
My personal stuff is 1000% better than the stuff they gave us anyway. I don't see a problem as long as it's legit and checked out to work properly.

mancow

 

[n4voxgill]

talk around is easy, it must be MO on the license. Makes no difference if it is to be used for input or talk around it is MO, or mobile only. In most instances you will see frequency xxx.xxx licensed as FB2 and MO and then that frequency is the repeater output and the mobile frequency to be used for talkaround. It is also common to see also listed as FX for the input from the dispatch center to the repeater. Then there is a paired frequency for MO only that is the repeater input.

155.555 FB2
155.555 MO
155.555 FX
154.444 MO

There are some weird examples, but this is the most common. Of course each frequency must be licensed for each different emission mode if it is going to be analog digital. All different kinds of stuff.