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FCC Notice of Violation for NGGMRS’s linked repeater system

Hans13

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There are 32 tone codes and a lot more DCS codes. There is really no reason that repeaters cannot co-exist on same channels. If a "club" is linking the entire state and not monitoring the repeater input, then they are doing things wrong. All that can be fixed.
FM capture effect. The area is so small that it plays a huge role.

It wasn't so much about them using all of the pairs. It was their juvenile interference, threats, and constant complaints against ANYONE who had a repeater on the air and open. When I moved into the area, GMRS was completely dead. I made a concerted effort to increase GMRS interest. It was sucessful and we had a wonderful ad hoc group of people. Nobody was excluded and there was great fellowship. Then the few control freak members decided they wanted more rules and started a group, telling lies to everyone about what they wanted to build. The destroyed the GMRS community there until one man decided to move his open repeater to a high profile location. He spent a lot of money and put in a lot of his time. Then the GMRS membership only group got even more ugly.
 

Hans13

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Amateur radio repeater coordination collapsed here in Florida because it was a good old boy network. Nobody could get "permission" to put up a repeater and as a result the leadership got called out and disbanded as a non compliant non profit org by the one guy crazy enough to do so.
Yeah, it was the same everywhere I went. Coordination was a joke and nobody could get a pair. Many old-timers were parked with coordinated pairs on paper but no repeater in the air.

I am NOT a supporter of mandated GMRS repeater pair coordination. I saw how that nightmare worked from amateur radio. :mad:
 

Hans13

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I am in favor of linking, but not to the extent that NGGMRS "allegedly" operates.
We are 100% in agreement. I don't dislike linking. I just want room for the rest of the public as well.

I still sometimes think... Allow DMR and make most of this nonsense go away. :unsure:
 

celestis

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Amateur radio repeater coordination collapsed here in Florida because it was a good old boy network. Nobody could get "permission" to put up a repeater and as a result the leadership got called out and disbanded as a non compliant non profit org by the one guy crazy enough to do so.
My Modest Proposal: Make operating a repeater station like 3.5 GHz where each base has to be granted an unused channel by an automated computer that periodically grants (every 24 hours) the repeater a pair, maybe they’ll fall in line at the threat of a repeater having to be constantly internet-connected for it to be allowed to key up AT ALL
 

Hans13

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You are going to have to explain "Open". Do you mean carrier squelch? If so, no wonder people are upset. Did you choose a tone that was unused? If no why not?
Open to all licensees. The repeaters still use tone squelch.

Typically, when a GMRS repeater is listed as "closed" on a database, it means members only as opposed to "open" which means anyone can use it.
 

EuropeanUser

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If anyone is interested in their take on the rules this was streamed 6 days ago.

They talk about the linking at 25:27.

TLDR:
They believe the rule change wasn't done properly and isn't valid. We'll see how that pans out.
 

jeepsandradios

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By the way, back in 1970's in Chicago, a high profile GMRS group ringed the suburbs with Spectra Tac receivers connected via leased wireline and shoe strings. Nobody ever complained and it certainly could have been a violation of 95.1733 (8) at the time. If one were so very anal.
I had one for years the same way. I had 4 rx sites with one tx site. Was amazing for portable coverage. Of course this was before the who ham lite craze of GMRS and was on the air for at least 10 years with not one comlplaint. Granted it was my family and a few friends that used it but thats it. I had plans for a second tx site in the works but ended up moving from the area so never implimented it.
 

AK9R

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This NAL...
Technically, it's a Notice of Violation (NOV), not a Notice of Apparent Liability (NAL).

An NOV is a "we think you are violating the rules, so please explain why we shouldn't fine you".

An NAL is a "we think you are violating the rules and you've given us no reason to change our minds, so here's your fine".
 

Project25_MASTR

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As we all have pretty much long established, Part 95 is not very well written and has a bunch of holes in it.

I think the biggest issues (which I'm sure NCGMRS is going to use for their defense) is:
  • 95.1733 which specifically prohibits messages conveyed via a wireline to be transmitted but fails to define what a wireline actually is.
  • 95.1745 which allows for remote control of a control station or repeater.
  • 95.1749 which says network connection for remote control is okay for GMRS.
The reasons I specifically see these as issues...well there is no definition of "wireline" in Part 95 or all of Chapter 1 of Title 47. If you take the Chapter 5 definition of wire communications, it's a point to point copper wire interface and defined similarly to how remote control is defined in Part 95 (that point to point path has to leave the premises to be considered remote operation). Well if the FCC chooses to call a wireline any E&M type interface...that could spell the end of two mobiles strapped together to build a repeater or even integration with external controllers.

However, under the current assumed definition wireline via wire communications, a private microwave network (IP based even) is not a wireline therefore messages conveyed over that interface simply fall under remote control. Hell, Starlink to Starlink....is not wireline network connection or even LTE to LTE because it's crossing that wireless demarcation when it leaves the premises. To even further muddy that, the "Interconnection Prohibited" clause was removed in 2017.

We also now have a unique situation where taking two control stations, one for say a the 700 pair and one for the 625 pair, tying them together via E&M with something like an ACU-1000...we are not conveying messages over wireline and RF, operation is local and/or automatic and we've also interconnected independent repeaters (under automatic operation) without crossing any of the technical restrictions. Of course, the FCC can restrict or limit a geographic area but they haven't specifically defined that area (which is a requirement of 95.327), yet.

Is linking outside of the spirit of the service? I don't believe it is. In fact there is the argument that it may be required to facilitate emergency communications or even to support disaster operations. If I need to interconnect two repeaters to support incident operations (or even training) to allow information to flow between teams and/or IC, that's one thing that should specifically be allowed. As some in this thread may have heard from my SWIC yesterday at APCO, we integrate AUXCOM into ESF-2 and believe that the AUXC is not just limited to amateur radio operators. However, common courtesy is:
  1. Be as spectrally efficient as nessecary. So if you can accomplish your immedate wide-area needs with voting/simulcast, in order to use a few channels as possible, that's the way to go.
  2. If you patch something together, break the patch when it is no longer needed.
I honestly think we are coming to the point where the lack of coordination is affecting GMRS and there may need to be some additional language that states something a long the lines of simulcast/voting to fill in a repeater is fine, on demand interconnection is fine, but full time linked systems are not. Even going as far as repeaters need to be listed under locations on our licenses (itinerant operations exempt) with the frequency in use. Then at least it becomes easier to tell, oh that operator is filling in a site for simulcast or attempting to build a wide area network (outside of the "spirit") and we should have a chat with them (as the commission).
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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Correct me if I am wrong, but according to the NGGMRS maps they have no repeaters shown in the Metro-Atlanta area. They are ringed well outside the city on mountaintops. I don't see how this configuration is hogging channels unless someone is trying to use a portable in a high rise in the downtown.

Also has anyone formally complained to FCC about a specific incident? Obviously the NGGMRS has been on the radar of FCC and we hear all kinds of anecdotal complaints, but a specific WRITTEN and DATED complaint from another GMRS licensee that they had a repeater interfered with etc?
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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So, instead of working to get the rule changed, they flaunted the rule and dared the FCC to take action? FAFO.
If you think the rules are in your favor, why challenge it? If you got on the highway and all the speed limit signs suddenly said 79 MPH instead of the state law saying 75 MPH maximum. What would you do? Call a lawyer? Argue with the DOT?
 

Hans13

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So, instead of working to get the rule changed, they flaunted the rule and dared the FCC to take action? FAFO.
What? That's a valid legal strategy. Once the FCC took action against them, they had standing. I guess you didn't know that?
 

Hans13

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If you think the rules are in your favor, why challenge it? If you got on the highway and all the speed limit signs suddenly said 79 MPH instead of the state law saying 75 MPH maximum. What would you do? Call a lawyer? Argue with the DOT?
Bingo! An attorney couldn't do much until he was stopped for speeding; even better, cited for speeding. Calling DOT and going though that system to get it corrected and/or feeling real effect of the mistake and being now in a position to challenge it are really the two main methods.

(To thread, not RFI-EMI-GUY: One could get a politician involved and here with something small like mistaken speed limit signs it probably would work but something as big as the FCC? Not in a long while, if ever. Might as well continue the activity... which is what they did.)
 

Hans13

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Correct me if I am wrong, but according to the NGGMRS maps they have no repeaters shown in the Metro-Atlanta area. They are ringed well outside the city on mountaintops. I don't see how this configuration is hogging channels unless someone is trying to use a portable in a high rise in the downtown.

Also has anyone formally complained to FCC about a specific incident? Obviously the NGGMRS has been on the radar of FCC and we hear all kinds of anecdotal complaints, but a specific WRITTEN and DATED complaint from another GMRS licensee that they had a repeater interfered with etc?
Good point.

Sometimes, people within an agency don't like what they percieve as a thumb in their eye, That can be enough on its own. I, too, am curious if there were actual, bonifide complaints from GMRS licensees, how many, and be able to read the specifics of each.
 

KD8DVR

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If anyone is interested in their take on the rules this was streamed 6 days ago.

They talk about the linking at 25:27.

TLDR:
They believe the rule change wasn't done properly and isn't valid. We'll see how that pans out.
I don't think the rules changed.... they just clarified existing rules. If it does classify as a rule change, then they are right. You need a proper NPRM, and comment period..... as much as I hate to say it.
 

KD8DVR

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Good point.

Sometimes, people within an agency don't like what they percieve as a thumb in their eye, That can be enough on its own. I, too, am curious if there were actual, bonifide complaints from GMRS licensees, how many, and be able to read the specifics of each.
I've "heard" from people who allegedly have complained. So, I think they are out there.
 
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