FCC REBANDING Discussion Thread

[Voyager]

Just received an email back from Uniden Customer Service stating that no update would be available for my BC785D. This effectively renders a $600 radio and digital card useless for trunktracking once the rebanding is implemented. I just found out recently about the FCC change and am astonished the manufacturers did not see it coming. Does anyone know if an aftermarket update will be available for Uniden late model (mine is less than a year old) radios besides the 296/796 models?

Bill Poe

They STILL don't know the final bandplan, so how can you be surprised that they didn't know years ago?

Also, it will onlyh be 'no good' for some (most?) Motorola systems. LTR and EDACS will still work fine as-is.

Aftermarket upgrades for firmware are highly unlikely - as are aftermarket upgrades for Cellular restoration (even though there is an obvious demand).

Joe M.

 

[John_M]

Voyager wrote:

They STILL don't know the final bandplan, so how can you be surprised that they didn't know years ago?

What do you mean they still don't know the final bandplan? :lol:

Uniden did know that rebanding was coming and stores still sold the 785D for full price. They should have stopped selling these units as soon as they knew about rebanding, or at least sell these units for $300.00.

 

[Voyager]

Voyager wrote:

They STILL don't know the final bandplan, so how can you be surprised that they didn't know years ago?

What do you mean they still don't know the final bandplan? Uniden did know that rebanding was coming and stores still sold the 785D for full price. They should have stopped selling these units as soon as they
knew about rebanding.

Good one! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So, you would have had them stop selling their product for several years until they can GARUNTEE that it will be usable on ONE OUT OF the three supported trunked modes.

700 MHz has been known about for many years. How many scanners CURRENTLY SUPPORT 700 MHz trunking: ZERO!

There are a lot of new technologies that aren't supported in current scanners. But, to suggest that they not make any scanners until they can suport EVERYTHING is really laughable.

As for what I mean that they don't know the final bandplan, it is likely they will use the same one as the FCC bandplan, BUT NOT ABSOLUTE. for that plan, see the 2nd or 3rd post in the rebanding thread. Motorola COULD use the EXISTING 9600 bandplan to cover the new bandplan. That would be nice since all the scanners already have it in the firmware. But, they could also use a completely different bandplan. We won't know until the first rebanded systems go on the air. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET, so we can't say what the rebanding bandplan actually will be.

Joe M.

 

[John_M]

Voyager wrote:

So, you would have had them stop selling their product for several years until they can GARUNTEE that it will be usable on ONE OUT OF the three supported trunked modes.

700 MHz has been known about for many years. How many scanners CURRENTLY SUPPORT 700 MHz trunking: ZERO!

If this is true: Uniden was selling the 785D in the last year. In the last year the 796D was also available and they knew that it would be upgradeable. But they still kept selling the 785D's knowing full well that it would not be upgradeable. Maybe in some stores the 796D was not available but the 785D was along with add on card? If there were some 785D's sold to unsuspecting buyers while the 796D was available in the last year and I suspect there were. Then, Uniden should offer a discount to an upgradeable 796D. If the unit was purchased within the last year.

Stores are still trying to sell those 785D's.

 

[n4voxgill]

A little history. Late 1990s complaints about interference with 800 public safety systems started. I don't remember when APCO started Project 39 but it was around 2000. Next big step was Nextel filing a proposalwith the FCC on 11.21-2001 proposing realignment of 800 with nextel picking up a couple of hundred million dollars of cost.

The fCC then released it's first Notice Of Proposed Rule Making on 3-15-2002. Things rocked along with arguments and threats of court action. Verizon suckered some people into fighting it.

Last December, didn't look up the date, the FCC came out with the Final Order, contingent on Nextel accepting the new financial requirment. Nextel agreed on 2-7-2005. Verizon agreed to drop protest and an agreement was worked out between Nextel and Southern Link. All of these things mean that 2-7-2005 was the date rebanding was ordered.

Now if Uniden had held up on any new scanners until it was sure what would happen, then they would now be working on 250/785. That would put the 296 out to about 2007 and the 396 about 2010.

There was no gruarantee that the problem with interference was going to be addressed with rebanding. Motorola came out with a dumb proposal to correct the problem with software. Many people didn't want to do anything and let every agency in the United States complain individually about interference. The cases would have drug out for 10 or 15 years and never really solved the problem.

I own a Pro95 that I wish could be updated, but that will ot happen. Now I can use it for other scanning. I don't know how anyone can be a serious listener without using several scanners. I live near one of the busiest air force bases and milair monitoring is great. I use 4 scanners just for this. These guys operate on a large number of frequencies, and I hear them on new frequencies from time to time.

On Memorial Day weekend I used 3 scanners to monitor the 3 channels being used by the sheriffs dept on the rivers. If you scanned you missed a lot. Had a scanner on hold for each frequency. Same for SWAT or even a large fire. I use a seprate scanner for each command.

What I'm saying is your 785 is not useless, just use it for monitoring non trunked if it will not work in your area. You may even luck out and have an edacs system you can use it on.

Look at all these people preorderig the 396 and it will not come ready for rebanding. Uniden believes that the 396 along with the 296 and 796 can be reflashed. But there is no guarantee. Same for the Pro96 and Pro2096, multiple tables are supposed to make them work.

There is no way I would be the first to buy a new scanner today until I hear reports that it is working with rebanding. That means holding off buying any new scanner for several months. There is not a snowball chance in hell that people will do that.

It will be interesting about a year from now to see if people are complaining about the 396 for not doing something.

 

[John_M]

n4voxgill:

You don't want to miss a thing do you? I don't blame you I don't either. 2/7/05 huh. I don't personally own a 785D but I can't help but feel for those people who shelled out $600 for a scanner that will no longer do what it was intended to do. They still have CT/DCS decode, LTR, and Edacs and are far from being useless. Where I am there is only one MOT Trunked stytem in the whole county of 760,000 people and that belongs to KODAK. There are a few LTR systems for business use but that is all. Everything else is all CSQ.

 

[Voyager]

Voyager wrote:

So, you would have had them stop selling their product for several years until they can GARUNTEE that it will be usable on ONE OUT OF the three supported trunked modes.

700 MHz has been known about for many years. How many scanners CURRENTLY SUPPORT 700 MHz trunking: ZERO!

If this is true: Uniden was selling the 785D in the last year. In the last year the 796D was also available and they knew that it would be upgradeable. But they still kept selling the 785D's knowing full well that it would not be upgradeable. Maybe in some stores the 796D was not available but the 785D was along with add on card? If there were some 785D's sold to unsuspecting buyers while the 796D was available in the last year and I suspect there were. Then, Uniden should offer a discount to an upgradeable 796D. If the unit was purchased within the last year.

Stores are still trying to sell those 785D's.

OK. Time for my trump card. Scanner users likely knew about the rebanding (via boards like this one) BEFORE the scanner industry (Same with 700 MHz, BTW).

SO, WHY DID YOU buy a scanner you knew would be outdated?

That's why they sold it.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

<snip>

Last December, didn't look up the date, the FCC came out with the Final Order, contingent on Nextel accepting the new financial requirment. Nextel agreed on 2-7-2005. Verizon agreed to drop protest and an agreement was worked out between Nextel and Southern Link. All of these things mean that 2-7-2005 was the date rebanding was ordered.

<snip>

What I'm saying is your 785 is not useless, just use it for monitoring non trunked if it will not work in your area. You may even luck out and have an edacs system you can use it on.

Great history lesson. I missed the point at which the NEW BANDPLAN came into the picture. After all, that wasn't (and still isn't) necessary, and it surely wasn't in the original proposal. Rebandcing doesn't mandate a new bandplan when the current bandplan supports all the frequencies in the band (as the 9600 bandplan does). It's not the rebanding that is requiring the reflash/upgrade/whatever - it's the new bandplan.

Also, the only thing that will be useless is 3600 TRSs. EDACS, LTR, and conventional will still be just as useful.

Would you have had the same complaint if your local TRSs had upgraded from 3600 to 9600?

You don't live in OH, do you? (not you, Gill) No, I guess you're in Rochester, NY (where you can't have a scanner on the street at all, but that's another thread). OH is going to do just that, and any 785 will no longer be usable on the statewide MARCS system. Do you think those people are entitled to a free upgrade to support 9600?

Last point: PA is going to Open Sky. Should Uniden stop selling scanners until they come out with one that handles Open Sky? (no matter what the methods or costs since it's proprietary) ANYONE who buys ANY scanner that works with PSP today won't be able to use it once they switch over. Should Uniden be selling scanners in PA?

When TRSs came out, should Uniden have stopped selling conventional-only scanners until they released the BC235XLT? ANY of those stoppages would have likely put Uniden out of business and then you would have been paying BIG BUCKS for your GRE scanner since there would have been no competition. Also, there would have been no incentive for GRE to developt their scanners further. As it stands, each is producing better units due to the competition for your dollar.

Why do you think there ARE STILL conventional only scanner sales? There are markets for them. The 785 included in THOSE areas.

Joe M.

 

[John_M]

Joe

Joe, there is no trump card because I never bought a 785D. But I can't help but feel for the people who shelled out $600 for a scanner that doesn't do what it was intended to do anymore like BillPoe. If I was going to buy a base unit I would have bought the Pro 2096 so I could use Win96 with both the Pro-96 and Pro-2096. But I held out, considered many scanners and decided on the 396T. Which I intend to buy two of them because I don't want diffferent software for each scanner that I have. No, this no likely story. I did not buy a 785D.

BTW Joe, I would be interested in your take on n4voxgill's
comments on holding off about buying a scanner until after rebanding?

 

[mikea7531]

I bought my BC785D almost 2 years ago, at that time the BC796D was not out on the market yet, i don't even think it was even known at the time. At that time - i new rebanding was coming, but Uniden should have known too. I paid a little over $500 for the scanner and the digital card - and once NJ gets rebanded in the first phase, i'll be left in the dark. I just feel that BC785D is still a fairly new scanner and if Uniden wants to keep their customers happy, they need to help them! Even if they offered a trade in option (like trade in your 785 with $150 and get a 796) or something like it, i would do it. As far as Base/Mobile scanners go - the BC785D is ONLY 1 scanner generation ago.

 

[Voyager]

Joe

Joe, there is no trump card because I never bought a 785D. But I can't help but feel for the people who shelled out $600 for a scanner that doesn't do what it was intended to do anymore like BillPoe. If I was going to buy a base unit I would have bought the Pro 2096 so I could use Win96 with both the Pro-96 and Pro-2096. But I held out, considered many scanners and decided on the 396T. Which I intend to buy two of them because I don't want diffferent software for each scanner that I have. No, this no likely story. I did not buy a 785D.

BTW Joe, I would be interested in your take on n4voxgill's
comments on holding off about buying a scanner until after rebanding?

Well, the same applies to anyone who did buy one. The scanner community probably knew more about rebanding before the manufacturers. You really can't blame them. Maybe they had a warehouse full of new units that were made before the rebanding was a done deal.

As for Gill's comments, it never hurts to wait until you're certain about something. Right now, there is nothing garunteed about rebanding. By the end of the year, we should know exactly what will or will not work.

Joe M.

 

[John_M]

6/8/05

WASHINGTON-Nearly a year after the Federal Communications Commission adopted rules to solve the public-safety interference problem in the 800 MHz band, the reconfiguration will begin June 27, said the FCC's Wireless Telecommunications Bureau late Friday.

As of June 27, licensees will begin a three-month voluntary negotiation period with Nextel Communications Inc., followed by a three-month mandatory negotiation period. The voluntary period will end Sept. 26, and the mandatory period will end Dec. 26.

I'm glad this is finally getting under way.

 

[N_Jay]

6/8/05

WASHINGTON-Nearly a year after the Federal Communications Commission adopted rules to solve the public-safety interference problem in the 800 MHz band, the reconfiguration will begin June 27, said the FCC's Wireless Telecommunications Bureau late Friday.

As of June 27, licensees will begin a three-month voluntary negotiation period with Nextel Communications Inc., followed by a three-month mandatory negotiation period. The voluntary period will end Sept. 26, and the mandatory period will end Dec. 26.

Ahhhh, as the next 3 years flash befor my eyes! :wink:

 

[MacombMonitor]

Anyone know where the new Radio Shack (GRE Mfg) PRO-97 stands with rebanding?

Thanks!

 

[loumaag]

Anyone know where the new Radio Shack (GRE Mfg) PRO-97 stands with rebanding?

Please reveiw the thread.

Specifically I think this post by Don Starr indicates that the tables on the 97 will not work for rebanding.

 

[MacombMonitor]

Thanks!

 

[John_M]

Pro-97 and Rebanding:



I emailed RS to ask them about the rebanding. Here are the emails
that I got back. I don't know if it will help anybody, but here it
is!!!!

Thank you for the e-mail,

Unfortunately, the Pro-95 will not be able to be rebanded. The Pro-
96,
97 and 2096 will.


To better assist you with future questions, please respond to this
original email with the REPLY option.

Thank you,
Lori
RadioShack Product Support Center
LN/kk

http://www.radioshack.com


Here is another email from Radio Shack

The PRO-96 and PRO-2096 includes a
"custom table" range configuration that allows up to six table
configurations to be defined for both Motorola and P25 trunked radio
systems. A custom table range configuration consists of a base
frequency

(i.e., "Base = Channel 1"), a step size for the range (i.e., "Channel
N
= Base + N * Step") and an offset value (i.e., "Offset the channel
number by this value").

In the current Motorola channel plan for the 800 MHz band, there are
four or five range definitions that allow Motorola radios to access
every frequency in the 800 MHz band. We know what these ranges are,
and
have hard coded them into the PRO-96 and PRO-2096, so the radios
behave
exactly like Motorola radios when trunking the 800 MHz band.

In testing the six custom ranges, we were able to successfully
trunktrack the 800 MHz Motorola systems by turning the custom range
feature on and hand programming the 4 or 5 ranges that Motorola uses
to
define the 800 MHz band.

So...

Once the new Motorola bandplan for the reconfigured 800 MHz band is
known, it should be a very simple matter indeed to come up with the
correct base, step and offset values to make the PRO-96 and PRO-2096
track the 800 MHz band correctly on systems that have been rebanded.
With the exception of the actual channel tables themselves. We are
aware

of what Motorola plans to do with the their 800 MHz channel mapping,
and

are very confident that the PRO-96 and the PRO-2096 will be able
handle
800 MHz rebanding just fine.




To better assist you with future questions, please respond to this
original email with the REPLY option.

Thank you,
Lori
RadioShack Product Support Center
LN/kk

 

[safetyobc]

I wonder what will happen if say Little Rock, AR stays as it is now and AWIN(statewide State Police system) or Jacksonville, AR moves on the rebanding. and Uniden issues a firmware update for rebanded freqs so your scanner will properly trunktrack the moto systems. Will the update change all trunking tables in the scanner or will it be selectable for rebanded and non-rebanded systems?

If it isn't selectable, you'll have to choose which systems to monitor and which ones you will loose trunking on. Correct?

 

[UPMan]

Assuming rebanding can be accomodated at all, it will be implemented without losing compatibility with non-rebanded systems. Our plan is to support with the scanners I listed previously. The disclaimer at the bottom is very real, though...until a system actually goes "live" with rebanding, neither mfr (Uniden nor RS/GRE) knows for sure what will need to be done regarding either reprogramming (custom tables) or reflashing.

 

[safetyobc]

Thanks for the info. That is reassuring to know non rebanded systems will be supported.