Federal UHF, 70cm ham, and PavePaws

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trooperdude

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I'm interested to see in what range of frequencies most of the federal re-farming
to narrowband lands.

I know that DOD is after >100 ham repeaters in the 420-440Mhz range that are "interfering" with the new radar on both coasts.

PavePaws uses almost the entire ham spectrum. ( well it is actually THEIR spectrum, amateur use is
licensed as secondary for the record)

In your experience, are the new federal systems popping up after re-farming landing
in a narrow range of frequencies in the low 400's ??

What have you seen.

That seems to be the case in the SF Bay Area of California.
 
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zz0468

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I'm very active on 70cm. Radar is frequently heard in Southern Calif, although I don't know if it's PAVE PAWS. The interference seems to be involving a single radar site up north. I don't think there is any intention of using 420-450 for anything other than radar, so I don't expect to be hearing any refarmed federal systems there.

The radar is a mixed blessing. As I shut the radio off because the radar is too severe to put up with, I am thankful that it's there. Otherwise there would be no 70 cm ham band at all.
 

smokeybehr

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I hear radar on everything from 420 to 470 at times. I can be listening to Fresno County's EMS dispatch on 462.975, and I'll hear the radar pulses coming through.

I don't see why they need 30MHz of bandwidth just for radar, especially when there's other bands that can be used that are just for radiolocation.
 

zz0468

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smokeybehr said:
I hear radar on everything from 420 to 470 at times. I can be listening to Fresno County's EMS dispatch on 462.975, and I'll hear the radar pulses coming through.

I don't see why they need 30MHz of bandwidth just for radar, especially when there's other bands that can be used that are just for radiolocation.

The radar you're hearing above 450 is probably an image, and not really on those frequencies. As for the bandwidth, it's a function of pulse width and pulse repetition rates. Pulse radar is a very wideband mode.

The fact of the matter is, the 420-450 band IS allocated for radio location. That is it's primary function. Amateurs are a secondary user, we must accept the interference FROM the radar, and we must not cause interference TO the radar. The reason for that frequency is that the wavelength is ideal for the application - long range detection of aircraft and missiles.

There go those damned pesky laws of physics again.

In spite of the nuisance, I'm glad it's there for several reasons...
 
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kb2vxa

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Hi guys,

Just to address a few important points you brought up and to clear up a misconception;

"I know that DOD is after >100 ham repeaters in the 420-440Mhz range that are "interfering" with the new radar on both coasts."

You may consider this a long delayed echo (LDE). The radars have been active since the 70s and all but two have been dismantled, only now they decide to complain. This alone makes me suspicious of their motives as just about everything the government does.

"In your experience, are the new federal systems popping up after re-farming landing
in a narrow range of frequencies in the low 400's ??"

There is no re-farming going on, however there's a whole slew of military trunked systems and various federal interoperability systems cropping up. None of them have anything to do with the 70cM radars or Amateur bands.

FYI, the most powerful 70cM radar on the planet is at Arecebo PR, the big dish is a lot more than a radio telescope. With ERP in the terawatt range it's used for planetary mapping. At one point the transmitter was throttled back to the 1500W Amateur limit by a couple of hams who work there, hearing signals from Uranus became a reality all jokes aside. I forget the gain of the antenna but in any case the ERP was still in the megawatt range, quite legal since the limit is on transmitter output only, you can use as much antenna gain as you can muster.

"I'm very active on 70cm. Radar is frequently heard in Southern Calif, although I don't know if it's PAVE PAWS."

It's the only 70cM radar in North America, the other site is on Cape Cod Massachusetts.

"The interference seems to be involving a single radar site up north."

You've got it pegged.

"The radar is a mixed blessing. ... Otherwise there would be no 70 cm ham band at all."

Probably so, seventy cems is the most sought after band worldwide and has already fallen victim to spectrum snatching in ITU Regions 1 and 3. Military allocation being primary hams in Region 2 operate under their umbrella of protection, nobody messes with a guy with a gun.

"I hear radar on everything from 420 to 470 at times. I can be listening to Fresno County's EMS dispatch on 462.975, and I'll hear the radar pulses coming through."

Probably front-end overload, you're getting hit with what starts out as pulses in the hundreds of kilowatts range diminished by the square of the distance. In Fresno you're right in the thick of it. I used to get clobbered close by the rotating dish at Newark (NJ) International Airport when I worked there and that radar operates nowhere near the VHF/UHF bands. That zzzZZZzzz sweep was only scatter, I really wouldn't want to be in the beam. You don't see why because you don't understand the workings of the system.

"As for the bandwidth, it's a function of pulse width and pulse repetition rates."

That's basically it, think "broadband Internet" and you've got a grip on it.

"12 volt radios are for wimps. Real radios can kill you."

I just LOVE high voltage!
 
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zz0468

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Another clarification... There may be only two PAVE PAWS sites in the continental U.S., but that is not the only system using that spectrum. There are other airborne and shipboard radars using 420 to 450. The radar I hear the most is out in the desert of California and Arizona, and hundreds of miles from the Beal AFB site in northern Calif. It's probably airborne.

Here's an interesting document that discusses the issue:

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/reports/ntia00-40/chapt5.htm

There's plenty of data to indicate that 420-450 is alive and well as a radar band, and not going anywhere anytime soon.

kb2vxa said:
I just LOVE high voltage!

Glow fets!
 
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elk2370bruce

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kb2vxa said:
Hi guys,

Just to address a few important points you brought up and to clear up a misconception;

"I know that DOD is after >100 ham repeaters in the 420-440Mhz range that are "interfering" with the new radar on both coasts."

You may consider this a long delayed echo (LDE). The radars have been active since the 70s and all but two have been dismantled, only now they decide to complain. This alone makes me suspicious of their motives as just about everything the government does.

"In your experience, are the new federal systems popping up after re-farming landing
in a narrow range of frequencies in the low 400's ??"

There is no re-farming going on, however there's a whole slew of military trunked systems and various federal interoperability systems cropping up. None of them have anything to do with the 70cM radars or Amateur bands.

FYI, the most powerful 70cM radar on the planet is at Arecebo PR, the big dish is a lot more than a radio telescope. With ERP in the terawatt range it's used for planetary mapping. At one point the transmitter was throttled back to the 1500W Amateur limit by a couple of hams who work there, hearing signals from Uranus became a reality all jokes aside. I forget the gain of the antenna but in any case the ERP was still in the megawatt range, quite legal since the limit is on transmitter output only, you can use as much antenna gain as you can muster.

"I'm very active on 70cm. Radar is frequently heard in Southern Calif, although I don't know if it's PAVE PAWS."

It's the only 70cM radar in North America, the other site is on Cape Cod Massachusetts.

"The interference seems to be involving a single radar site up north."

You've got it pegged.

"The radar is a mixed blessing. ... Otherwise there would be no 70 cm ham band at all."

Probably so, seventy cems is the most sought after band worldwide and has already fallen victim to spectrum snatching in ITU Regions 1 and 3. Military allocation being primary hams in Region 2 operate under their umbrella of protection, nobody messes with a guy with a gun.

"I hear radar on everything from 420 to 470 at times. I can be listening to Fresno County's EMS dispatch on 462.975, and I'll hear the radar pulses coming through."

Probably front-end overload, you're getting hit with what starts out as pulses in the hundreds of kilowatts range diminished by the square of the distance. In Fresno you're right in the thick of it. I used to get clobbered close by the rotating dish at Newark (NJ) International Airport when I worked there and that radar operates nowhere near the VHF/UHF bands. That zzzZZZzzz sweep was only scatter, I really wouldn't want to be in the beam. You don't see why because you don't understand the workings of the system.

"As for the bandwidth, it's a function of pulse width and pulse repetition rates."

That's basically it, think "broadband Internet" and you've got a grip on it.

"12 volt radios are for wimps. Real radios can kill you."

I just LOVE high voltage!

If it don't glow and give off heat, it ain't a real radio - just a rice box. Fire up those 832's in parallel!!!
 

KOK5CY

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Speaking of antenna's there are a line of these huge sat's that are positioned straight south all in line and turn 1 inch per hour and i was told there hooked up to roswell,nm . There for watching anything that comes in the earth's atmosphere . If i can remember there about 100 miles east of the AZ , NM border . There not hard to miss being big and white but the area is FED GOV land . I'll have to ask the better half she's been through the area more times than i know of .
 

kb2vxa

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Hi again,

True, there are airborne and shipboard 70cM radars but I was talking land based fixed site radars.

Glow FETs? Nah, FIRE BOTTLES!

"If it don't glow and give off heat, it ain't a real radio..."

The slogan is "Real radios glow in the dark." and the T shirt has a National NC-173 silk screened on it.

"...just a rice box."

The older JRCs had tubes and so did the Yeasu FT-101 series.

"Fire up those 832's in parallel!!!"

Those are 4-250As.
 
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trooperdude

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kb2vxa said:
There is no re-farming going on, however there's a whole slew of military trunked systems and various federal interoperability systems cropping up. None of them have anything to do with the 70cM radars or Amateur bands.

Actually there is refarming going on. Several systems (non-trunked) in the SF Bay Area have been re-farmed to lower frequencies and narrowband. All in UHF.

USDA is refarming frequencies as well due to narrowbanding, but that's VHF.

I didn't say or imply it did have anything to do with 70cm.

I was curious if they were being moved lower in frequency for the same reasons that
70cm seems to be under the gun.

It's the only 70cM radar in North America, the other site is on Cape Cod Massachusetts.

West Coast is Beale AFB in Northern CA. East Coast is Cape Cod from my readings.

70cm amateur systems seem to be under review around both areas.

[/QUOTE]
 

zz0468

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trooperdude said:
Actually there is refarming going on. Several systems (non-trunked) in the SF Bay Area have been re-farmed to lower frequencies and narrowband. All in UHF.

USDA is refarming frequencies as well due to narrowbanding, but that's VHF.

It may be merely semantics, but I don't think what's happening in the federal bands is quite the same thing that's happening on the PLMR bands. "Refarming" includes substantial changes in allocations, bandwidths, sharing, and elimination and consolidation of a number of seperate radio services. It's much more comprehensive than the new systems, frequency changes, and narrow banding that's taking place in federal spectrum.

trooperdude said:
I didn't say or imply it did have anything to do with 70cm.

I was curious if they were being moved lower in frequency for the same reasons that
70cm seems to be under the gun.

No. The 400 MHz federal allocation is separate from the 420-450 allocation. What goes on in one has close to zero influence in what happens in the other.


trooperdude said:
West Coast is Beale AFB in Northern CA. East Coast is Cape Cod from my readings.

70cm amateur systems seem to be under review around both areas.

I believe it is only the specific interference that is under review. Shared operations in general are unaffected. If there are 300 repeaters in the area of one of the radars, and 100 cause interference, only the 100 should come under review.
 

pfish

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mkewman said:
i've definitely heard interference from beale.

I dunno about interference, but many, many UHF repeaters are being shut down (or, power is being reduced so much that the repeater is useless) in Northern California. A few of my favorites have already been cut down to 500mW, and are on the verge of being turned off. A few of those are up on Vaca, Banner, and Osborn hill.

:(
 

zz0468

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Hopefully, the shutdown is temporary. There is speculation that the reason for the quiet zone is do to contractor obligations while upgrades are being performed. The hope is that once the upgrades are accepted, things will go back to normal. But like I said, this is speculation.

The curiosity is why they aren't targeting links operating in the 420-430 range, 432 weak signal operations, or mobile operations in the 440-450 range. All of these have the potential to put signals equal to, or stronger than the repeater outputs.

One system that I know of was asked to reduce power by 36 db. 500mw would have been a blessing. Oh well. What are you gonna do? *shrug*
 

ecps92

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New Radar

Pave Paws is not new, been around since the Early 1980's.

Remember HAMS are a Secondary user of the 420-450 Mhz Range.



trooperdude said:
I'm interested to see in what range of frequencies most of the federal re-farming
to narrowband lands.

I know that DOD is after >100 ham repeaters in the 420-440Mhz range that are "interfering" with the new radar on both coasts.

PavePaws uses almost the entire ham spectrum. ( well it is actually THEIR spectrum, amateur use is
licensed as secondary for the record)

In your experience, are the new federal systems popping up after re-farming landing
in a narrow range of frequencies in the low 400's ??

What have you seen.

That seems to be the case in the SF Bay Area of California.
 

ecps92

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Refarming vs ReAllocations

The 406-420 is undergoing Re-Allignment, not Refarming.

Many Agencies moving to 12.5 Khz Split channels and now using Standard Off-Sets where the input will be +9Mhz

Nothing major other than that.



trooperdude said:
Actually there is refarming going on. Several systems (non-trunked) in the SF Bay Area have been re-farmed to lower frequencies and narrowband. All in UHF.

USDA is refarming frequencies as well due to narrowbanding, but that's VHF.

I didn't say or imply it did have anything to do with 70cm.

I was curious if they were being moved lower in frequency for the same reasons that
70cm seems to be under the gun.



West Coast is Beale AFB in Northern CA. East Coast is Cape Cod from my readings.

70cm amateur systems seem to be under review around both areas.
[/QUOTE]
 

trooperdude

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ecps92 said:
The 406-420 is undergoing Re-Allignment, not Refarming.

Many Agencies moving to 12.5 Khz Split channels and now using Standard Off-Sets where the input will be +9Mhz

Nothing major other than that.

You say potato, I say potatoe.

:roll:
 
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