Feedback requested on a theoretical design

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JoeBearcat

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Do you believe there is a market for a non-trunking digital scanner? (we will say P25 / DMR / NXDN / ProVoice for argument's sake)

(Let's avoid the paid upgrade vs included question for now)

I know my opinion. What's yours?
 

mmckenna

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To me (and I'm not much of a scanner user anymore), it would depend on the price.
I can get used P25, NXDN or DMR radios for $100 or so. Single band which would be limiting, but better receiver performance. I could certainly see such a radio being useful in rural areas and smaller towns that didn't have trunked systems. Then again, with some states starting to build out 'statewide' trunked systems, it would really depend.
 

w2lie

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Wow, Non trunking Digital? What percentage of frequencies that are defined in the RRDB even fit that designator?

To be honest, I purchased an Alinco DJ-MD5 just for that purpose. It is analog and DMR Tier I and II. I rarely use that radio.
And as a Unication dealer, I don't get too many DMR upgrade requests on their products, which again is Tier I and II. (Keeping in mind I don't keep track if they are going to be used for P25 trunking or conventional)

This is just my perspective. It might be a different situation outside of my listening area.

To be honest, I'd love to see a replacement for the BC346XTC. There is a gap there between the low $100 analog only conventional scanner and then you go right into the $300+ Digital Trunking. But I think this is outside the scope of your question.
 

JoeBearcat

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To be honest, I'd love to see a replacement for the BC346XTC. There is a gap there between the low $100 analog only conventional scanner and then you go right into the $300+ Digital Trunking. But I think this is outside the scope of your question.

Maybe not. Perhaps that is where a 'compromise' might be reached. Again for argument's sale let's say it would be a $250-ish price point. So at that point would you spend another $100-ish and get the trunking model?

Note I am speculating about the prices since I have no firm design to reference. I only mention it to get around the price issue. For the design, let's say it's SDR based.

And yes, Phil, your first point is what prompted the question. There is a fair bit of conventional DMR out there - including in the ham bands.
 

K4EET

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As a communications systems engineer that used to design transmitters and receivers, not scanners mind you, but I don't see how there would be much of a price differential between the two models. As @mmckenna said with states starting to build out, folks may be wanting to "future-proof" their purchase and not buy something that will be a brick a few years down the road. So for me, I would be reluctant to "underbuy" in the ever changing scanner market. Dave K4EET
 

lu81fitter

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Is trunking an option that is hard to implement, cost wise? You can program a trunking radio to do non-trunking tasks now. Seems to me that you would be creating a whole new animal. Most systems seem to be migrating to trunking (mostly P25), especially in large metropolitan areas. I don't want to snub the ham guys, I listen myself. I agree with K4EET.
 

GTR8000

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So far the only overwhelming benefit of the SDS/SDR/RTL design is that it handles LSM and other P25 simulcast modulation quite well. There are more downsides to it, however, including the higher power usage vs a traditional design. The 396XT, for example, had decent runtime using just three readily available and cheap AA batteries, and that scanner was capable of trunking. Aside from "this is the way of the future", I can't really see much point in designing what amounts to a neutered SDS series scanner that will no longer trunk-track.

I'm also not sure how you'd get all the way down to the $250-$300 price point simply by removing trunk-tracking. You still have to pay the DVSI royalties for AMBE+2, you'd still need a big Li-Ion battery to power the RTL chip, essentially the same design as the SDS series, oh yeah and no doubt the requirement to pay the $60 DMR upgrade and $50 NXDN upgrade on top of the base price. Now we're all of a sudden back up in the $400 range, for conventional only?

The SDS series, for as good as it is with simulcast on the upper 700+ bands, has well documented issues with reliable reception in the VHF and UHF bands in high RF environments, in spite of any firmware or "filter" tweaks.

Bottom line is that it would be cheaper and more convenient for end-users to essentially add digital modulation to the BC125AT than it would to come up with a completely new design, or to use the SDS platform as the basis for a non-trunked digital scanner.
 

hiegtx

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Do you believe there is a market for a non-trunking digital scanner? (we will say P25 / DMR / NXDN / ProVoice for argument's sake)

(Let's avoid the paid upgrade vs included question for now)

I know my opinion. What's yours?
As a communications systems engineer that used to design transmitters and receivers, not scanners mind you, but I don't see how there would be much of a price differential between the two models. As @mmckenna said with states starting to build out, folks may be wanting to "future-proof" their purchase and not buy something that will be a brick a few years down the road. So for me, I would be reluctant to "underbuy" in the ever changing scanner market. Dave K4EET
I'm with Dave on this.

If the potential buyer lives in, near, or often travels to or through a large metro area, he or she would be better advised to stick with a digital scanner capable of trunking.

While there are a number of rural counties west of the DFW area, where agencies largely use conventional frequencies, with some having moved to P25, there are other rural counties that are loining up with one of the regional trunked systems, which are digital.
 

ofd8001

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Do I think there would be a market - probably.

Would I buy one - unlikely as there is only one P25 conventional system within reception range of me that I'm interested in monitoring. The only other reason would be if I went out of town and there were more such systems available. But I'd have a "regular" scanner instead.
 

JoeBearcat

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Is trunking an option that is hard to implement, cost wise? You can program a trunking radio to do non-trunking tasks now. Seems to me that you would be creating a whole new animal. Most systems seem to be migrating to trunking (mostly P25), especially in large metropolitan areas. I don't want to snub the ham guys, I listen myself. I agree with K4EET.

Is it hard? Not really, but this would have to be something that is not another BCD325P2. As such, it would have to be significantly less expensive.
 

GTR8000

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ModelDigitalTrunkingBase Price (Amazon Jan 2021)Add DMRAdd NXDNTotal Price
BC125ATNoNo$120N/AN/A$120
BCD325P2YesYes$385$60$50$495
BCD436HPYesYes$450$60$50$560
SDS100YesYes$650$60$50$760

There is certainly a large gap between the $120 BC125AT and the $385 BCD325P2, even without the DMR/NXDN upgrades being added.

So essentially this new digital non-trunk tracker would need to be at least $100 cheaper than the BCD325P2 to make it a viable option, and we're going to assume that the DMR and NXDN upgrades will follow the same pattern of every other Uniden scanner and be an add-on for additional cost, with P25 conventional being part of the base package.

I mean hey, if you can pull it off at that price point, there might be a market for it. But the price has to be attractive enough to forgo spending $100 more to get trunk-tracking, which is probably a wise investment regardless.

Also, Phil is right that the demise of the 346XTC has left a hole in the handheld analog-only trunk-tracking slot, a need that only the BCT15X can fill, as far as still-current products. I realize that analog Motorola Type II, EDACS, and LTR systems are a dying breed, but to have to spend $385 for a handheld scanner to fill the 346XTC's hole is quite a bit more than the $200 or whatever the 346XTC cost before it was axed. Anyway, that's off topic I suppose. I've more than spoken my mind, I'll go back to lurking now. ;)
 

gtaman

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I would say there wouldn’t be much of a market for it. Too much digital is trunked. I will bet money if you take the BCD996P2. Change the hardware to support LSM systems it will sell like fire. I would end up selling all of mine to just have a stack of LSM capable 996s. Not everyone wants SD cards and needs a full database.
 

trentbob

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Do you believe there is a market for a non-trunking digital scanner? (we will say P25 / DMR / NXDN / ProVoice for argument's sake)

(Let's avoid the paid upgrade vs included question for now)

I know my opinion. What's yours?
NO... Use your precious resources for more pressing issues that are in your face. Get that stuff behind you before you go for the pie in the sky with a limited market.
 

radiopro52

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There will always be a select market for a particular product that meets the needs of that particular customer, but I don't think the demand would be very high. Way too many current and upcoming digital trunking systems to justify purchasing a scanner that's incapable of trunktracking them.

That being said, I echo the concerns about the analog-only scanner market. The transition to digital in my area, for example, has been very slow so there's still a lot of analog in use. I have the 346XT which works really well, but I do miss the recording option that's built in on the newer top-of-the-line digital trunking scanners.
 

n1chu

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Do you believe there is a market for a non-trunking digital scanner? (we will say P25 / DMR / NXDN / ProVoice for argument's sake)

(Let's avoid the paid upgrade vs included question for now)

I know my opinion. What's yours?
Maybe but it’s a shrinking market. So, I vote “Not so much”.
 

jonwienke

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I'd say no. The vast majority of P25 is trunked, so having P25 capability but not trunking seems a bit like kissing your sister (unless you're from certain sections of the South ;)). The hardware cost is going to be nearly identical either way; the only real difference is software/firmware, which doesn't cost that much per radio in quantity. I'd rather pay an extra 10% to get a product that adds the capability to handle 90+% of P25 traffic.

IMO adding decryption capabilities to enable authorized system users to enter an AES key and hear encrypted transmissions on their own system would be far more useful.
 
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