Fire Stops in walls

[QDP2012]

If I sealed the breach with weather and fire resistant sealant (that gooey expanding foam stuff) after running the cables thru it do you think that would suffice?

I just have so many coax runs I want to put in, I would have to drill several holes in the fire stop to fit them in so that would reduce the effectiveness of them.

I am not an expert on any of those products. But,

• I would not expect the fire-rating on those over-the-counter products to be the same as, nor comparable with, the products used by professionals to meet code when building a house.
• I would also not expect to be able to get the saturation/coverage when applying the OTC product that professionals do during construction.
• I also would not expect home-owner's insurance representative to be very happy with any changes in the garage-protection that was professionally installed;
• nor a fire-marshal, if one had reason to visit and decide how well the OTC product worked or was applied.

I just searched on HomeDepot.com using the term "firestop". It gave me a couple of hits for the expanding foam fire-stopping material. I would imagine Lowes has it, too. I will assume that the expanding spray foam weather-stopping material may not have the fire resistant rating that the fire-stopping material has...

I agree.

...When my house was built in 2008, the last thing the electricians and plumbers did before the insulation batting was installed was spray the firestop foam in all of the penetrations in the top and bottom sills. The electricians also sprayed it in the penetrations in the electrical boxes.

Sometimes builders also use special vapor-barrier tape along with sprayed products to help ensure nothing gets through from the garage to the living quarters; not just to separate cold spaces from hot spaces, and to prevent related mold issues inside walls.

But if I used it to seal a breach between the garage and den it should be OK? This would be a 2 or 3 inch hole they the common wall, not the 2x4 fire stops.

For safety reasons, I wouldn't do it. Maybe some building inspector could visit and approve the idea before you begin; I don't know. But, from experience and training, I do know the hazards of carbon monoxide, and other deadly (or illness-causing) gasses. I would not run the risk, even if an inspector approved it. For me there's too much risk...

• of future product deterioration later causing the sealed-conduit-path to become unsealed in an unnoticed manner.
• that, even if the wall/conduit connection would be sealed perfectly with the OTC spray-product, there might be some other way for the gasses to get inside the conduit on the garage-side, through a loose joint, etc.

Rich:

Take your wife out to a nice dinner (or whatever works) and when she's in a good mood explain that you need to open up the wall ONE TIME and put in a pair of the biggest diameter plastic pipes that will fit. Explain that after the wall is repaired it will be better than new and you will never have to have 'just one more' run of coax visible.

It may cost you a week of planting petunias but will be worth it in the long run.

This sounds like an idea worthy of serious consideration.



Just one opinion.

Hope it helps,

 

[mancow]

Rich:

Take your wife out to a nice dinner (or whatever works) and when she's in a good mood explain that you need to open up the wall ONE TIME and put in a pair of the biggest diameter plastic pipes that will fit. Explain that after the wall is repaired it will be better than new and you will never have to have 'just one more' run of coax visible.

It may cost you a week of planting petunias but will be worth it in the long run.

Or, do like I did and just do it . Then again she doesn't care what I do.

 

[ofd8001]

I'd suggest building a 1' by 1' wood frame chase, covered by drywall (finished and painted) in the corner adjacent to your consoles. That way you won't be altering any fire resistant construction "stuff".

Yeah, some outside help might be required, but the finished product would probably look like original construction and you'll have lots of room for cabling. Also if as time goes along you have to replace a cable, doing so will be easier as you don't have to undo any fire-stopping material at points of cable penetration.

If you go with your other options (garage or existing walls), I suggest you make a call to the local building official. I'm sure they would be happy to give you some guidance on how to best deal with holes you would create and not run afoul of any code requirements.

Yet another option, though not very aesthetic (but not too bad in a corner) would be to use wiremold raceway. Wireway Systems | by Legrand

 

[phask]

The products commonly available meet and exceed requirements. Fire block sealing is no more difficult than proper weather sealing and energy efficiency sealing. In fact much is the same process.

You may think differently, but some basic construction knowledge and one will exceed any requirements.

The orange foam fireblock as well as 3m's caulking tube fireblock will handle most applications.

I am not an expert on any of those products. But,

• I would not expect the fire-rating on those over-the-counter products to be the same as, nor comparable with, the products used by professionals to meet code when building a house.
• I would also not expect to be able to get the saturation/coverage when applying the OTC product that professionals do during construction.
• I also would not expect home-owner's insurance representative to be very happy with any changes in the garage-protection that was professionally installed;
• nor a fire-marshal, if one had reason to visit and decide how well the OTC product worked or was applied.

I agree.



Sometimes builders also use special vapor-barrier tape along with sprayed products to help ensure nothing gets through from the garage to the living quarters; not just to separate cold spaces from hot spaces, and to prevent related mold issues inside walls.




For safety reasons, I wouldn't do it. Maybe some building inspector could visit and approve the idea before you begin; I don't know. But, from experience and training, I do know the hazards of carbon monoxide, and other deadly (or illness-causing) gasses. I would not run the risk, even if an inspector approved it. For me there's too much risk...

• of future product deterioration later causing the sealed-conduit-path to become unsealed in an unnoticed manner.
• that, even if the wall/conduit connection would be sealed perfectly with the OTC spray-product, there might be some other way for the gasses to get inside the conduit on the garage-side, through a loose joint, etc.

This sounds like an idea worthy of serious consideration.



Just one opinion.

Hope it helps,

 

[mmckenna]

I agree. We have our guys firestop -everything- at work, and it's not that big a deal. There are plenty of putties, fillers, spray foams and other engineered solutions that will work just fine, meet code, and are specifically designed for this sort of work.
This is the simple part of the entire project.

If you are really concerned about this, then you should also be looking at riser rated cables, and not just the stock off the shelf outdoor rated coax.

 

[N9JIG]

Well, after reading all this, consultation with the SIL and others, the Building Manager and Queen of the Estate (AKA the Wife) has decided that I will run the coax lines down the corner of the room and box it off.

I suppose this will be the best way to do it and will be similar to the way I did it at our old home except not in a closet.

I might try one of the wall conduit solutions proposed in this thread and see if they could be painted to match. I might also think about some sort of crown molding around the room to cover the breach into the attic.

 

[madrabbitt]

Placing it in a corner and painting to match existing works pretty well. Not the ideal choice, but might be easier than opening up the walls.
We've used it in a lot of places at work where there were concrete walls and there is no other option. Looks better than bare EMT conduit.
There is some pretty big versions of this stuff, so wouldn't be an issue for a number of coax runs. There are even divided versions so you can run different services inside. Coax down one side, 220v down the other for your amplifier.

I was going to quote the earlier post, but this one is pretty much what i was about to say.

Corner mount conduit, the corner side affixed to the wall, the exposed side painted or textured to match the wall. Its not really noticeable when done right. If the room is wallpapered, you could even stick wallpaper to the conduit.

 

[N9JIG]

Well, I had a carpenter come out. He was highly recommended by several of my neighbors and is very familiar with the homes in my development. He siad that the wall I am looking to run the cables thru might be extra thick, and the "Firestops" might actually just be supports for the laundry room cabinets on the other side. Since that is the laundry room the wall might be up to 8 inches, due to the dryer vent and water/gas pipes.

He is getting the blueprints and after he does we will decide if we can indeed run the wire chase thru the wall or not. If so then he will put in a 4 inch PVC pipe with a 90 at the bottom a foot above the floor. He would still have to remove some drywall and restore it. If that won't work he will run it down the corner and box it in with drywall. He is well versed in curved drywall edges so he can match the rest of the house.

I already have the coaxes ready to go. I set them up in 5 bundles of 4 and staggered the downstairs ends slightly. I only zip-tied them in the parts that will be exposed in the office and 20 feet or so above so I can cut the ties after they are run. The final 30 feet or so (most of the coaxes are 50 feet, with a few 75's and 2 100's) are still coiled and will be left that way in the attic until connected to antennas.

This will give me a bunch of spare coaxes so I can fire-seal the pipe and be able to put up another antenna or 5 later down the road. I plan on about 10 or 11 antennas for now and have spare coax for several more later.

I had originally planned on buying a new home here, the ones being built here now have cathedral attics with the insulation on the inside of the roof instead of the floor of the attic. We opted however to buy resale home that was a few years old that had a standard attic layout with blown-in floor insulation. Since we can't have roof antennas the attic will have to do...

After that and a wall-mount TV install he will paint the room and we will be set. Hopefully the tile guy can get the floor done first so the floor molding can be painted properly.

 

[ofd8001]

You might ask your carpenter, who should be familiar with local building codes, whether or not fire stopping of the newly installed PVC conduit is even necessary. If it is, the next question is whether the local code authority would accept something like packed fiberglass or rock wool as fire stopping material. Fiberglass or rock wool would be much easier to remove, rather than the expanding foam type stuff.

If you could let us know what you find out, that would be interesting. My gut feeling is that fire stopping probably is not required in one and two family dwellings of your construction type - wood frame/platform.

 

[W9WSS]

How 'bout some photos, Rich? Before is a no-brainer (You can shoot them anytime before construction begins). After will be a bit more challenging, considering you'll have to bring the camera up in the attic work with available light (possibly none?) and get clear views of the cables coming up out of the PVC, and distributed to various points in the attic where the antennas will be located. Will you be making mounts on the floor joists, putting down plywood so you can navigate about the attic without fear of falling through the ceiling? Thanks for keeping your fellow CARMA and RR friends informed. I love before and after photos, as most of your audience does!

 

[N9JIG]

Update

Turns out that the "fire stops" were actually just supports for the shelves in the laundry room on the other side of the wall. The wall is extra thick, about 6 inches or so so we can easily fit the pipe.

Sunday I have to move the computer and phones to the dining nook so I can work during the day while the carpenter tears up the office. The tile guy did his work last week.

The carpenter arrives Monday to do the work (cutting the drywall, fitting in the pipe, cutting the cap and supports, adding replacement supports, running the coaxes, putting in the sealant, then restoration. Tuesday the painter comes. When he is done Tuesday afternoon I can bring back the computers and phones so I can work there Wednesday.

Can't wait!

 

[N9JIG]

Getting there!

The contractors came this week and removed the drywall from the section of the wall, from near the floor to the ceiling. This wall uses 2x6 studs since the other side is the laundry room and it carries the dryer vent and gas and water lines. Above the 8 foot level (10 foot ceilings) there is a wider soffit above the laundry room cabinets, the interior of which open. We ended up cutting 2 2-inch holes in the cross-member in the wall and matching holes in the attic floor. This was due to the stack of 3 or more 2x6's in the wall cap.

Due to some electrical wiring and the reroute of the cables we opted not to use the pipe idea and ran the cables loose in the wall. After they were pulled we tied them off to the studs.

I ran them in 2 bundles, each bundle tied to a different stud. One is a batch of RG8X's that will be used for radios that transmit and the other batch is for receivers, with several RG6X and RG8X cables as well as an LMR240.

After the cables were run they sealed the holes with flame-retardent sealer, replaced the drywall and patched/re-textured. The painter returns tomorrow to finish the job since the mud was not dry enough to do it yesterday.

This weekend I plan on putting in the antennas in the attic. Since it is now July here in the Arizona desert I will go up there early in the morning to place the antennas. I might have to do a few each day, depending on the residual heat remaining in the attic. With the clay tiles on the roof the attic is much cooler than I would have thought considering the average daytime temps are well over 100 these days.

I plan on about 10 or antennas to go in the attic now although I ran 21 coax lines. This will allow me to add antennas or swap coax if one goes bad. I ran continuity tests and labeled each prior to the installation but just in case...

After that is done then I can return the furniture to the office, put the radio cabinets in place (they are already built and wired) and start playing radio again.

It has been 8 months since I disassembled my radio rack from the old house, I am anxious to get them back in operation.

 

[N9JIG]

The carpenters have come and gone. They opened the wall and as suspected there was a 6x2 stress support for the cabinetry on the opposite side of the wall. The wall is almost 6 inches due to the dryer vent, gas and water lines etc. for the laundry room. Above the cabinets is the soffit that widens out another 18 inches or so, leaving quite a large void.

Here are the pics:

Carpenter Mike cleans the cut after removing the drywall. They tried to go up thru the cap but it was too deep. They filled the drilled out portion with firestop sealant.

Coaxes brought down and secured to the studs.

The wall after the holes in the support and cap were sealed and the wallboard replaced.

They then sanded, textured and painted. After the paint dried I was able to put my radios and furniture back in. See http://forums.radioreference.com/pi...le-setup/316394-n9jig-az-shack-completed.html for the rest of the story.

 

[ofd8001]

That turned out very nice!

I'm sure you are happy to be back in service.

 

[scottyhetzel]

I would have run ent flex so I could pull in futures later... Shielded that Rolex with foil shield to cut down on noise. Than set back the coax 1 1/4 per code from the drywall. Nail plated the fire blocks so someone could not put a screw thru.

 

[cmdrwill]

"Shield his Rolex"??? "ent flex"????

I would guess the OP pulled extra coax cables when the wall was open. I would have.
The OP did "set back" the coax from the drywall, great job.

 

[N9JIG]

I had to sell the Rolex to buy all the radios.

Yes, I have planned on about 10 antennas and have 24 coax lines, so I have plenty of spares for future use. It is just now getting to the point where I can get back up into the attic without roasting so I think I will do so within the next couple weeks.

 

[scottyhetzel]

Typo,, I meant Romex, not Rolex. Lol.

 

[scottyhetzel]

I had to sell the Rolex to buy all the radios.

Yes, I have planned on about 10 antennas and have 24 coax lines, so I have plenty of spares for future use. It is just now getting to the point where I can get back up into the attic without roasting so I think I will do so within the next couple weeks.

Rich, that is dedication to the cause to sell your Rolex to get radios...

 

[Colton25]

what cable did you use to run down the wall? I'm thinking about taking LMR400 from the antenna through the attic to just above where i want my cables to drop and switching to something more flexible.

I had to sell the Rolex to buy all the radios.

Yes, I have planned on about 10 antennas and have 24 coax lines, so I have plenty of spares for future use. It is just now getting to the point where I can get back up into the attic without roasting so I think I will do so within the next couple weeks.