I am a volunteer firefighter in Alabama and want to install a mobile transceiver in my truck. I need 9600 baud and ADP encryption. Can the basic ham radios (budget) do these programming points? Any suggestions would help. I have a vertex vx6000 I picked up at a yard sale but works vhf and our county uses uhf. Thanks.
-
To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:
Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.
If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.
To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.
The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.
For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).
This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.
Firefighter comms questions
- Thread starter NavyPhil
- Start date
No, ham radios aren't capable of P25 trunking. Suggestions? Sure...speak to the person in charge of the trunked system you're trying to buy a radio for and work it out with them. You don't just buy any old random radio for a trunked system. You need authorization and a legitimate user ID, and of course if ADP is involved, you need the correct encryption key once authorized to have it in a personal radio.
Generally speaking, most state, county or local trunked system admins will not put a radio off ebay on the system. You would have to buy the radio from an auth dealer. You would also need permission from your agency, the sys admin to get on the system. Get with them to start the process before buying any radio.
I'm not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to help the OP out. Another thing to consider is that system admins will only authorize certain radio manufactures and models on the system. It all varies. Good example is one agency I worked for was Harris only. P25 P1 system, but nothing other than Harris. Another agency had several venders that could be on the system, but the radios had to be current production and supported. You see, this can get very expensive real quick for an individual purchasing vs a government agency. The cost could run between 4-8k easy. Get with your agency and system admins. Do some research to see how much this will cost you.
nd5y
Member
If you need a radio then why doesn't your department issue you one?
Many volunteer FFs are just about expected to fund the agency themselves for the privilege of putting out hay fires and pulling someone's bloody stump of a hand out of a machine that just chewed it up.
Certain things agencies should pay for themselves, but don't want to.
Certain things agencies should pay for themselves, but don't want to.
Thanks for all the responses. Our fire and rescue trucks all have radios, but many of us live in a valley where we can’t pick up the repeaters well with hand held (which we have limits on those numbers as well). I have been in touch with the comms officer for the county and have permissions and he will help if I have Motorola 800. He has provided all the parameters to put in for me to program in other radios. That is what I am hoping to do by purchasing an older fire truck radio that can fit these parameters.
I know the system is trunked, but is that something I can program with software and right cables? Will an older trumped cop or fire radio work for me?
Thanks guys
I know the system is trunked, but is that something I can program with software and right cables? Will an older trumped cop or fire radio work for me?
Thanks guys
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
It doesn't work that way. Authorized programmers are issued system keys, blocks of IDs, approved codeplugs and templates, and only vetted subscribers are provisioned.
These are radios on someone else' system, and you should be in touch with them getting the above, along with CPS, cables and training not a hobbyist forum.
These are radios on someone else' system, and you should be in touch with them getting the above, along with CPS, cables and training not a hobbyist forum.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
So, not really the way this works. The above posts are spot on.
There's a lot more to programming a radio on a trunked system than just getting some parameters.
The radio ID needs to be in the trunked system controller. You won't be able to do that. That has to be done by the system administrator.
Then the radio needs to be programmed, but that requires a system key. If you don't have a system key, you will not be able to program the radio to work on the system. No key = no access.
If the system administrator is willing to help you and add your radio to the system, you'd need to have that person tell you -exactly- which radio you need. The type of radio you need depends on the frequencies that are in use, and the type of trunked system. There are several different types of trunked system and they are not all compatible. You can't just buy a random trunked radio off E-Bay and have it work.
The radio not only needs to be the right band and capable of the right trunking protocol, it also needs to have the correct feature set. If it doesn't have the correct feature set, it's not going to work. The feature set (flashcode in Motorola speak) is something that the radio is either ordered with, or updated via a special procedure/key by a dealer/trained tech.
If you've got all that, then you need to program the radio.
Programming a radio on a trunked system is not easy, it's nothing at all like programming a scanner or a conventional radio. It usually takes a good tech a lot of learning/classes/experience/time to be able to do it correctly.
So:
Correct band radio.
Correct trunking protocol
Correct feature set/flash code
Correct software
Correct cable
Correct system key
Correct programming of the trunked system to permit this new radio (some systems require the ESN/Serial Number to be programmed into the system before it'll allow access)
Correct radio ID assigned to each individual radio
Correct programming of the radio
No offense, but no, if you are asking these sorts of questions on what is a hobby radio site, this is really deep complex stuff you are wading into. It took me months to learn how to properly program/provision a radio on trunked systems.
Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of very specific details you need to have before you purchase a radio. The radio has to be exactly right or it's not going to work.
And buying used radios off e-Bay is a really bad idea for public safety use. You have no idea what sort of condition the radio is in. Used radios are often retired for a reason. Sort of like buying a used car. Any radio that is going to be put into public safety use where someones life may depend on it really needs to be properly serviced before it touches anyone that's on duty. Any used radio should get an alignment done on a service monitor by a competent/trained tech with the correct test equipment (about $40K+ worth of test equipment….)
The right way for this to happen is that the system administrator provides a list of compatible radios for their trunked system. That usually means that the system admin has programming templates/files/system keys/cables that work with those specific models, and those models have been properly tested to work on their system.
I've never heard of a system admin just providing some "parameters" to someone and sending them out to buy a radio off the used market. That, honestly, sounds kind of fishy.
We're more than happy to help you, but there's a LOT of details you need to provide.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
IDLH comms are best left to those who have authority and responsibility for them.
One wouldn't cobble together turnout gear or BA from unknown sources. Radios used in life safety settings are no different. The last thing one wants is to be in an OSHA hearing or LODD/injury case with "so and so was on a radio hobby forum seeking software, cables and knowledge on how to hack radios onto xxxx system".
It's alot more than it not working. Not working could get someone killed. Leave it to the people who have the titles and the responsibility to make it work properly.
N4KVE
Member
Years ago when Jedi radios were new, my friend drove the county owned canteen truck that showed up at fires to supply drinks, & food to the firefighters. He also had rack chargers in case batteries needed to be charged. They had to supply their own 800 MHz radios, but they were all programmed by the county radio shop, & each radio was first inspected by the sys adm. But I still remember that while he’d approve the STX, & MTS2000, he would not allow MTX8000’s to be used on the system. I thought that was strange. My friend passed away a few weeks after 9/11, & the county gave him a huge funeral procession. Even the last radio call at the funeral with the dispatcher saying he was 10-7.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Thanks for taking all this with the right attitude. Sometimes when people are trying to do things like this, they assume we are trying to make life difficult for them. Not the case here, we're trying to save you a lot of money.
Your best bet is to talk directly to the system administrator and tell them what you would like to do. You might get a flat out "no", but more than likely you'll get some guidance on how to get what you need.
Yeah, one thing I left out about trunked radio programming:
Get the radio ID wrong, and you can prevent other legit radios on the system from working. That really does put others lives at risk.
speedway_navigator
Member
Portables usually have the same receive ( we geeks call it RX) sensitivity as mobiles. You have less signal strength inside than out, a mobile has an advantage of a better antenna system from the metal ground plane (roof) it is mounted on. You have a downlink (repeater to mobile/portable) signal strength problem from terrain issues from what you describe.
I don't think a mobile will RX much better than a portable in your hand at head height in your truck, but it only takes a 1 or 2 decibel difference between the radio working or staying mute, so the mobile antenna might be the difference. Putting the portable in the center of the hood or roof will help. I knew a cop whose Hytera portable would hit the repeater from his living room but his mobile did not from certain spots in the driveway.
The mobile has an advantage in TX due to more power and better antenna efficiency.
Any idea how high your antenna is and how much gain it has? Gain antennas force more RF horizontally at the cost of reducing strength at ground level if it is too high.
lenk911
Member
If I could fine tune your comment with some industry engineering parameters/assumptions. A portable indeed has losses a mobile doesn't have.
Antenna rubber ducky loss: 10 db for VHF but it gets better as you go higher in frequency. 800 MHZ is nearly no loss. This is a standard length ducky not a stubby one.
Body Loss: Portable on belt or in turn-out jacket pocket: 10 db all bands
Body Loss: Portable at face: at best 3 db better than belt but very iffy. Most of the time the assumption is anywhere near the body is the same as on the belt.
Portable against face in vehicle: Very hard to predict but I have seen an additional 10 db beyond body losses.
Portable cross polarity with base antenna. Some officers think it is cool to use the portable in any position other than vertical. Can be as bad as 20 db.
Subtract these from the portable's meager transmit gains and you can see why the reliable (95-95%) range of a portable is 5-6 miles outdoors and in the clear.
speedway_navigator
Member
A Motorola engineer told our county communications board their 95% coverage factor was based on the portable at head height with the half wave antenna which is rare to see. About the only time you see a pubic safety user holding the radio like that is those stock photos on dealer websites.
These spectrum analyzer graphs show vertical vs horizontal testing I did for one of my training classes. If a cop or FF calls for cover or a mayday they probably are not thinking about antenna orientation, they just grab the spkr mic and call for help. Lying on the ground or floor usually means the antenna is horizontal.
lenk911
Member
You touch on a larger problem and that of insufficient/inadequate training. The training leaves an expectation your radio will work everywhere it needs to work. But when it doesn't... what do you do is missing. Most public safety officers have a portable on the belt with a speaker microphone (SM)--no antenna on SM. They aren't taught that if you pull the portable off the belt and hold it over your head you can gain more performance than the transmitter power itself provides. (TPO=6 dbw while raising the portable away from the body = +10 db in the coverage equation)
Also the nuances of a coverage study is never explained. 95-95 means there is a dispersed 5% out there not shown in the study. It means the portable is at or above grade in buildings. It means outdoors in the clear, etc. Moving a few feet may make the world of difference!
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Training users is always an uphill battle. The lack of understanding of RF is just the beginning. On the other hand, the responsibility of providing a simplified, consistent and reliable experience falls on those who operate such systems and maintains the subscribers. Quality equipment, documented PM and maintenance of all IDLH hardware, and documented training with simplified and easy to understand hand outs on how to properly operate their issued equipment, change zones/channels, know how to interpret warning sounds (out of range, imbalanced coverage, low battery, high temp) and how to properly clean/checkout equipment are mandatory.
Ultimately the end user has to take some ownership of their equipment. We often find things like damaged antennas, unauthorized antennas (aftermarket, stubbys, or even the wrong band antenna bought off Chinazon). These incidents, when occurring, are documented in our MCM CommShop 360 software along with corrective actions. A damaged radio is locked out/tagged out.
It's all about documentation to stay out of a courtroom or if in one, to not feel the heat of the frying pan.
Ultimately the end user has to take some ownership of their equipment. We often find things like damaged antennas, unauthorized antennas (aftermarket, stubbys, or even the wrong band antenna bought off Chinazon). These incidents, when occurring, are documented in our MCM CommShop 360 software along with corrective actions. A damaged radio is locked out/tagged out.
It's all about documentation to stay out of a courtroom or if in one, to not feel the heat of the frying pan.
speedway_navigator
Member
I made these RF101 videos to help.
I offered our local fire departments free training, so far no one has taken me up on it. I thought about going to FDIC but was hoping to do a few for the locals first to get feedback on whether or not it would be useful.
I don't have DAS experience on the pubic safety level so you might be able to fill me in on the -95 levels (I own 95dbm.com). Is this testing done in a work environment with metal file cabinets, all interior doors closed, all wifi APs and other possible RFI emitters working? Does the test take into account the attenuation factor of the # of human bodies that will be in the building?
lenk911
Member
This is an interesting question. Years ago I saw a study of such and there are two losses of the human body. With the portable tight against the body (near field) you have the -10 db regardless of frequency. Beyond that the the body becomes more a clutter loss (far field loss). The signal flows (refracts) around the body. The industry standard TSB 88 has a table of clutter losses by frequency but a human body is not one of them. Maybe it is ignored because the human moves around rather than like a tree or building.
