Florida Fleet Talk - New Site?

[ScubaJungle]

Ive recently been working on verifying the FFT sites nearby, and one change I've already submitted was the Pinellas control channel which was wrong.

Now, I've run into something else which has me really confused -
On 451.01875 & 451.11875 I am getting a NEXEDGE48 site with a RAN of 1, with the same system ID as FFT (R96), but it is definitely not Miami.
Not only would it be near impossible for me to receive Miami regularly here, but I've also copied multiple discussions and UIDs referring directly to Lakeland.

-So either there is another site with a RAN:1, in Lakeland
-or DSDPlus is giving a false system ID, and this is a different NXDN system

Has anyone else received this system?

 

[bravo14]

On DSDPlus if signal is not good enough it won't show much info or does give false info. If you have a scanner that tracks NXDN than it might be better see what it shows? When I was visiting back in Oct 2019 for a week by Jax area I was getting Jax and St Johns sites showed correctly with scanner and dsdplus.

 

[ScubaJungle]

On DSDPlus if signal is not good enough it won't show much info or does give false info. If you have a scanner that tracks NXDN than it might be better see what it shows? When I was visiting back in Oct 2019 for a week by Jax area I was getting Jax and St Johns sites showed correctly with scanner and dsdplus.

I have it programmed on my 436 and I pick it up fine, the signal is strong - however I don't think the BCD436HP shows system IDs (I could be wrong?)? The RAN is definitely 1, that shows on the 436 as well, but anything could have RAN:1, the system ID is what really matters.

 

[CommsTruck]

where are you picking it up from?

 

[bravo14]

2 ways to get site info. 1 is by going to settings than analyze than system status 2 do a custom search for that freq and it show the site info.

 

[ScubaJungle]

2 ways to get site info. 1 is by going to settings than analyze than system status 2 do a custom search for that freq and it show the site info.

Thanks - Im so used to doing research with DSDPlus that I didnt even think of using the 436 for getting system ID.
Ill update when I get a hit on it on the 436.

 

[mtindor]

Ive recently been working on verifying the FFT sites nearby, and one change I've already submitted was the Pinellas control channel which was wrong.

Now, I've run into something else which has me really confused -
On 451.01875 & 451.11875 I am getting a NEXEDGE48 site with a RAN of 1, with the same system ID as FFT (R96), but it is definitely not Miami.
Not only would it be near impossible for me to receive Miami regularly here, but I've also copied multiple discussions and UIDs referring directly to Lakeland.

-So either there is another site with a RAN:1, in Lakeland
-or DSDPlus is giving a false system ID, and this is a different NXDN system

Has anyone else received this system?

Are either 451.01875 or 451.11875 control channels? And even if not, how about tuning to them and capturing a screenshot sa DSDPlus displays information . If you are using DSDPlus, you should be using a bandwidth of 4.0 for NXDN48 and 7.6 for NXDN96. If DSDPlus is showing a System ID it should be showing a Site ID as well.

Screenshots from DSDPlus will be very useful for anyone who may be trying to help you determine what you're seeing and why.

Mike

 

[ScubaJungle]

Yes, I do have screenshots. Also, 451.11875 appears to be the control channel.

For whatever reason, I am unable to pick up this system on my 436 today. Same antenna and coax, and nothing at all. This has happened before - DSDPlus is sometimes able to decode a system perfectly while the 436 cant even begin. The signal is not great, but I am able to get perfectly clear voice with DSDPlus.

 

[ScubaJungle]

More info:
There appear to be two frequencies - I have it set up in the DSDPlus frequencies file with these two and it works fine, but there only appears to be one talk group (TG:1) in use.
Luckily, with NXDN48 systems, they sometimes have programmed UIDs, as you can see, which show "LKLD BASE", so it appears this is in Lakeland.
I think the issue with DSD vs the 436 is DSD+ is able to handle high gain very well, and decode at high gain without distortion issues, where the 436 needs a stronger signal. The gain is very high on DSD+ right now, but this is the best setting for the clearest voice on this system from my location.

Edit:
The site is currently displaying as R96-1, which would indicate that it is site:1 of the "R96" system - the R96 system is Florida Fleet Talk - unless "R96" is some form of default for NXDN systems, which I doubt, as there a few near me and I have never seen any with common IDs.

Heres a screenshot taken during a transmission:



DSD+ Event file log:

2020/05/29 11:22:33 Current network: R96
2020/05/29 11:22:33 Current site: R96-1
2020/05/29 11:22:36 Registration; RID=40 TG=1 ACCEPTED
2020/05/29 11:22:41 Current network: R96
2020/05/29 11:22:41 Current site: R96-1
2020/05/29 11:23:34 Current network: R96
2020/05/29 11:23:34 Current site: R96-1
2020/05/29 11:23:38 Group call; TG=1 RID=1 Ch=1
2020/05/29 11:23:49 Group call; TG=1 RID=9 [TRK 10047] Ch=1 2s
2020/05/29 11:23:54 Group call; TG=1 RID=1 [LKLD BASE] Ch=1 6s
2020/05/29 11:24:03 Group call; TG=1 RID=9 [TRK 10047] Ch=1 8s
2020/05/29 11:25:05 Group call; TG=1 RID=1 [LKLD BASE] Ch=1 2s
2020/05/29 11:27:19 Lost control channel; tuning to 451.018750
2020/05/29 11:27:19 Lost control channel; tuning to 451.118750
2020/05/29 11:27:20 Lost control channel; tuning to 451.018750
2020/05/29 11:27:21 Lost control channel; tuning to 451.118750
2020/05/29 11:27:22 Lost control channel; tuning to 451.018750
2020/05/29 11:27:23 Lost control channel; tuning to 451.118750
2020/05/29 11:27:23 Found control channel
2020/05/29 11:28:29 Registration; RID=42 TG=1 ACCEPTED
2020/05/29 11:29:20 Group call; TG=1 RID=1 [LKLD BASE] Ch=1 3s
2020/05/29 11:32:21 Registration; RID=40 TG=1 ACCEPTED
2020/05/29 11:33:09 Group call; TG=1 RID=56 [TRK 5000........] Ch=1

Radio Data file

NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 1, 50, Normal, 34, 2020/05/29 11:59, *"LKLD BASE"
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 2, 50, Normal, 6, 2020/05/29 11:45, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 3, 50, Normal, 3, 2020/05/18 14:49, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 5, 50, Normal, 10, 2020/05/22 16:44, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 8, 50, Normal, 11, 2020/05/29 11:55, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 9, 50, Normal, 10, 2020/05/29 11:24, *"TRK 10047"
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 12, 50, Normal, 5, 2020/05/29 11:55, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 18, 50, Normal, 6, 2020/05/18 21:43, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 20, 50, Normal, 5, 2020/05/22 16:36, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 21, 50, Normal, 1, 2020/05/22 16:08, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 22, 50, Normal, 9, 2020/05/29 12:00, *"TRK 80009"
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 23, 50, Normal, 1, 2020/05/22 16:00, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 24, 50, Normal, 3, 2020/05/22 16:28, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 27, 50, Normal, 2, 2020/05/29 11:43, *"TRK 10056"
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 28, 50, Normal, 9, 2020/05/22 16:46, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 29, 50, Normal, 2, 2020/05/22 16:33, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 31, 50, Normal, 2, 2020/05/22 16:43, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 32, 50, Normal, 1, 2020/05/22 16:01, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 33, 50, Normal, 1, 2020/05/22 16:41, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 35, 50, Normal, 1, 2020/05/29 12:00, *"TRK 2001...."
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 40, 50, Normal, 8, 2020/05/29 11:56, *"TRK 80010"
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 42, 50, Normal, 6, 2020/05/29 11:28, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 50, 50, Normal, 2, 2020/05/22 16:41, ""
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 53, 50, Normal, 5, 2020/05/29 11:59, *"TRK 20019"
NEXEDGE48, 96, 1, 56, 50, Normal, 5, 2020/05/29 11:35, *"TRK 50007"

 

[mtindor]

Yes, I do have screenshots. Also, 451.11875 appears to be the control channel.

For whatever reason, I am unable to pick up this system on my 436 today. Same antenna and coax, and nothing at all. This has happened before - DSDPlus is sometimes able to decode a system perfectly while the 436 cant even begin. The signal is not great, but I am able to get perfectly clear voice with DSDPlus.
View attachment 85738

Is there any chance you would consider attaching your screenshots as files rather than pasting them in? I know pasting is much easier, but for people with bad eyes they really cannot expand the images as far as they need to.

 

[ScubaJungle]

Sure, no problem

 

[mtindor]

Sure, no problem

Hey, you're a pretty cool guy (or gal?) -- Thanks for doing that. Lemme look it over. I'm not in FLA -- what do I know? But I'm willing to lend some advice if I have some good advice to lend.

 

[mtindor]

More info:
There appear to be two frequencies - I have it set up in the DSDPlus frequencies file with these two and it works fine, but there only appears to be one talk group (TG:1) in use.
Luckily, with NXDN48 systems, they sometimes have programmed UIDs, as you can see, which show "LKLD BASE", so it appears this is in Lakeland.
I think the issue with DSD vs the 436 is DSD+ is able to handle high gain very well, and decode at high gain without distortion issues, where the 436 needs a stronger signal. The gain is very high on DSD+ right now, but this is the best setting for the clearest voice on this system from my location.

Edit:
The site is currently displaying as R96-1, which would indicate that it is site:1 of the "R96" system - the R96 system is Florida Fleet Talk - unless "R96" is some form of default for NXDN systems, which I doubt, as there a few near me and I have never seen any with common IDs.

Heres a screenshot taken during a transmission:
View attachment 85739


DSD+ Event file log:

Radio Data file

A few things to keep in mind.

1. The System/Network ID (R96) is set by the sysadmins. If they felt like it, they (or some other radio shop) could use the same System/Network ID. There is no law against it, and it doesn't affect operations on the system. It would just be confusing to people like us.

2. It _could_ be part of the FFT system but be operating as a separate system that is linked into FFT via a different layer (like over IP using some other interface) -- so that this R96-1 would not conflict with the FFT Site 1 MIami.

3. This could be a standalone system (appears to be only using freqs from one of their licenses) set up specifically for the radio shop themselves, or some big customer of theirs in Lakeland who specifically wanted to be on a private system. And, as I mentioned before, there is nothing prohibiting them from using the same System/Network ID for a standalone system that they use on the FFT system.

If you monitor this site and ONLY see frequencies from WQWY669 AND you don't see talkgroups from FFT showing up on it, then it probably is not connected to FFT but rather is a standalone site used by the radio shop and/or a large customer of theirs local to Lakeland.

Unless somebody can disprove FFT Site 1 MIami, then I would say this is not a directly connected site acting as part of FFT but rather is a standalone site or linked to FFT via some interfacing to allow it to operate separately.

I noticed that on the FFT sites, their channel numbers typically match a standard UHF bandplan. Whereas this site is using ch 1, ch 2 (and likely, if other freqs are active, ch 3, ch 4, ch 5). That also leads me to believe it is likely a separate system.

4. And, of course, it could be a separate system (multiple sites) using the same Network/SystemID as FFT -- but it lists no neighbors. So again I predict it's a standalone system meant for either the radio shop or one of their preferred customers.

Mike

 

[ScubaJungle]

Thanks, I always like to help those who help others and keep the chain going and yes- guy, lol.
I'm thinking this may be a standalone site just for this construction/truck/industrial(??) company that may not be a normal part of the FFT network - but may be run by the same people, hence the same ID.
It seems to coincide with the usual services that use FFT (construction, trucking, towing, etc), so it would make sense that it is at least run by FFT, although I suppose it's also possible they [accidentally?] added another RAN:1, since it is far enough away from Miami to not cause any confusion anyway.

 

[mtindor]

Thanks, I always like to help those who help others and keep the chain going and yes- guy, lol.
I'm thinking this may be a standalone site just for this construction/truck/industrial(??) company that may not be a normal part of the FFT network - but may be run by the same people, hence the same ID.
It seems to coincide with the usual services that use FFT (construction, trucking, towing, etc), so it would make sense that it is at least run by FFT, although I suppose it's also possible they [accidentally?] added another RAN:1, since it is far enough away from Miami to not cause any confusion anyway.

Me thinketh you are corrrect -- standalone -- run by Sunstate but not part of FFT -- intended for a preferred customer. Nice job. Just be on the lookout for the potential of more frequencies being in use. Some systems load balance (every subsequent transmission switches to a new channel, to load balance duty cycle on transmitters) and some systems don't (so the first transmitter gets used normally, and then the second and third and fourth transmitters get used only when the first, second and third are already actively in use. So you might end up seeing more channels if you monitor over time.

Mike

 

[mtindor]

What would be interesting to know (and I do not have the answer) is how you are going to have to handle that in DSDPlus. As it stands now, if you monitor FFT systems, and you enter this in, it is always going to show up as part of the main FFT system in DSDPlus when you know it isn't.

I don't know how you would "separate it out" in DSDPlus so that it behaves and displays that it is part of a unique system when you name the network / site / add the frequencies.

Mike

 

[ScubaJungle]

A few things to keep in mind.

1. The System/Network ID (R96) is set by the sysadmins. If they felt like it, they (or some other radio shop) could use the same System/Network ID. There is no law against it, and it doesn't affect operations on the system. It would just be confusing to people like us.

2. It _could_ be part of the FFT system but be operating as a separate system that is linked into FFT via a different layer (like over IP using some other interface) -- so that this R96-1 would not conflict with the FFT Site 1 MIami.

3. This could be a standalone system (appears to be only using freqs from one of their licenses) set up specifically for the radio shop themselves, or some big customer of theirs in Lakeland who specifically wanted to be on a private system. And, as I mentioned before, there is nothing prohibiting them from using the same System/Network ID for a standalone system that they use on the FFT system.

If you monitor this site and ONLY see frequencies from WQWY669 AND you don't see talkgroups from FFT showing up on it, then it probably is not connected to FFT but rather is a standalone site used by the radio shop and/or a large customer of theirs local to Lakeland.

Unless somebody can disprove FFT Site 1 MIami, then I would say this is not a directly connected site acting as part of FFT but rather is a standalone site or linked to FFT via some interfacing to allow it to operate separately.

I noticed that on the FFT sites, their channel numbers typically match a standard UHF bandplan. Whereas this site is using ch 1, ch 2 (and likely, if other freqs are active, ch 3, ch 4, ch 5). That also leads me to believe it is likely a separate system.

4. And, of course, it could be a separate system (multiple sites) using the same Network/SystemID as FFT -- but it lists no neighbors. So again I predict it's a standalone system meant for either the radio shop or one of their preferred customers.

Mike

Looks like we have the same idea! All of those are great points, and I think this theory makes the most sense.

Ill be on the lookout for additional frequencies - I notice that with FFT, and NXDN in general, it is sometimes hard to copy data from the frequencies used for voice, I guess because DSD+ has a hard time getting anything out of the quick signal spikes with such narrow bandwidth. This has happened with other FFT sites, and until there's a decent transmission that lasts a few seconds, I can't confirm, so I'll be on the lookout and update if I find anything.

Ill also try to see if I can figure out exactly what this company is so I can add it to the DB. There's a lot of generic industrial/construction talk, so it's hard to say.

 

[mtindor]

Looks like we have the same idea! All of those are great points, and I think this theory makes the most sense.

Ill be on the lookout for additional frequencies - I notice that with FFT, and NXDN in general, it is sometimes hard to copy data from the frequencies used for voice, I guess because DSD+ has a hard time getting anything out of the quick signal spikes with such narrow bandwidth. This has happened with other FFT sites, and until there's a decent transmission that lasts a few seconds, I can't confirm, so I'll be on the lookout and update if I find anything.

Ill also try to see if I can figure out exactly what this company is so I can add it to the DB. There's a lot of generic industrial/construction talk, so it's hard to say.

Sounds good. And yes I think you are right, specifically with aliases broadcast over the voice channels. If the copy is weak, or the transmission is quick, you don't get the full alias (or perhaps any of the alias). But it sure is nice to have the ability to see them in most cases (when the system supports it).

Mike

 

[ScubaJungle]

What would be interesting to know (and I do not have the answer) is how you are going to have to handle that in DSDPlus. As it stands now, if you monitor FFT systems, and you enter this in, it is always going to show up as part of the main FFT system in DSDPlus when you know it isn't.

I don't know how you would "separate it out" in DSDPlus so that it behaves and displays that it is part of a unique system when you name the network / site / add the frequencies.

Mike

It seems to be working properly the way I have it set up right now - it isn't showing the other FFT sites.
When I have multiple cap+ systems in the frequencies file with common sites and info, I sometimes add a 1-1 or something a bit different that distinguishes it, and that seems to work.

For this one though, I just have it set up as this:
Nexedge48, 96, 1, 1, 451.01875, 0, 0
Nexedge48, 96, 1, 2, 451.11875, 0, 0

and haven't had any issues [so far].

I'm kind of surprised no one else seems to have noticed this, its a pretty active system. The 450-470 range in Tampa is absolutely packed with signals though, and there are so many frequencies with multiple systems using them which makes for a lot of confusion.

Thanks for all the input and help, I appreciate it!

 

[mtindor]

It seems to be working properly the way I have it set up right now - it isn't showing the other FFT sites.
When I have multiple cap+ systems in the frequencies file with common sites and info, I sometimes add a 1-1 or something a bit different that distinguishes it, and that seems to work.

For this one though, I just have it set up as this:
Nexedge48, 96, 1, 1, 451.01875, 0, 0
Nexedge48, 96, 1, 2, 451.11875, 0, 0

and haven't had any issues [so far].

I'm kind of surprised no one else seems to have noticed this, its a pretty active system. The 450-470 range in Tampa is absolutely packed with signals though, and there are so many frequencies with multiple systems using them which makes for a lot of confusion.

Thanks for all the input and help, I appreciate it!

You're welcome. I envy you -- I live in a podunk town in Ohio with very little traffic around. Probably why I'm always butting in on threads in other states you're welcome. Glad to be of help!

Mike