Frequencies Discrepencies

[chuckinsocal]

Hi Gang,

I hope this is the right place for this question. It's the closest I could find.

I'm in the process of programming a 296d with frequencies for San Diego County's digital trunked public safety system (RCS). I've looked through the numerous data bases on numerous web sites and find inconsistencies between them. Some have frequencies that other don't, etc. How reliable are these data bases? I want to get the scanner set up right the first time so I wound up going to the FCC site, which they say is updated weekly, and found the frequencies there. It was tedious and time consuiming but I think I got all the freqs I needed.

Even the frequency list on this site contains a frequency apparently not related to RCS according the the FCC (861.5000) and omits a frequency listed by the FCC (863.0000 & 863.2500)

I guess the question is: Is the FCC data base the most reliable and do other people have problems relying on the frequencies posted on the various scanner web sites?

Not rtying to be critical but Just wondering.

Chuck Cannova

 

[AlmostHandy]

One of the things I love about this site is how proactive the members are. This is critical in compiling a good database with so many variables. This site, specifically, tries hard to make sure that frequencies or talkgroups aren't indiscriminately, or flagrantly, copied from other sites, but rather are submitted by people who are in that area, and collaborate with each other to find the correct information first hand, with a receiver.

I'm not saying it's the most accurate database on the web. I'm just trying to convey that the proactive nature of a very large community correlates to a certain level of accuracy that is hard to match elsewhere.

I, like most people here, I'm sure, have favorite websites that pertain specifically to local and regional data. I find that whenever I discover a new source of information like that, I tend to cross reference it with this site and the FCC's lookup.

I'm not sure how to quantify the accuracy of data from sources such as the RRDB and the FCC's database. I know discrepancies between the two exist, as there are numerous threads about them. It's a little fascinating, as some of them work furiously to track down the error and correct it, as if the internet has it's own squad of superhero frequency detectives. It's amazing sometimes how quickly they'll track down and correct, what would seem to most of us, a really small discrepancy.

It's just one of the many reasons I really dig this site, and revere it as a leader in the field, second to none.



By the way, if you found a discrepancy in the DB, you should bring up the specifics in your regional forums. I bet it wouldn't take long to iron out. Keep in mind that the database is supported by user submission, and it's possible that something was missed. If you have that information first hand, you should submit it!

 

[zz0468]

I guess the question is: Is the FCC data base the most reliable and do other people have problems relying on the frequencies posted on the various scanner web sites?

The FCC database has some limitations... It reflects what people have licensed, and does an admirable job of that. Where the limitations come to play is HOW things are licensed, and how you search for them.

An example might be where a county holds the licenses for systems used by the various cities within that county. If you search for licensee by city name, you won't find what you're looking for. You'd have to search by that county's name, and then it might not be so clear what you're looking for. The database here does a better job with that.

Another limitation may be within the FCC records themself. Example: A license issued to "City of San Diego" may not appear in a search where the search criterion is "San Diego, City of".

If you hear something that you want to identify, and all you have is the area you heard it, and the frequency, the FCC database is an excellent resource to narrow the possibilities, whereas the database here would become an easter egg hunt.

As far as discrepancies and omissions go, welcome to the club.

 

[chuckinsocal]

Thanks guys for your responses. Here's what I did:

Starting with the data base here, I looked up all the freqs in the FCC Data Base.

The FCC returns, among other things, the call signs and tower locations associated with that frequency. Click on the call sign and you get a list of all the frequencies associated with that tower. Of course, you need to watch the licensee name and license status.

Put this all together and you get a comprehensive list of all the frequencies in the system plus the locations of the towers. A tremendous amount of work and time but I think I've got it all down.

The next step is to put all this into either a spread sheet or data base so it all can be cross referenced. Not that it needs to be, all you really need is all the frequencies, but, what the hell, I'm a closet analytical nerd and won't be happy until I can see the entire picture.

I don't know yet if I can upload documents or attachments to this forum, but if I can, I'll go ahead and post the final product. Otherwise, I'll just post all the frequencies. Maybe it'll help someone.

Chuck Cannova

 

[WayneH]

I've moved this to the California since the question is system specific (See Stickies).

 

[W6KRU]

Hi Chuck. I used this website exclusively to load the RCS system. I listen to North, South, and East zones and the Imperial sites. IMO the database on this site is 100% correct. I use CCs only though.

edit: PS. San Diego PD works fine as well.

 

[Mike_G_D]

Fellow Carlsbadian...

Hi Chuck!

I see you are in Carlsbad; can you indicate what part? I am in the north east part close to the border with Oceanside. In the Calaveras Hills area, to be more specific.

Well, you will find many here who, like you are, "closet analytical nerd"(s)! I know at least one here who will seriously give you a run for your money!! You will probably be hearing from him soon;-)! He has links to maps of those tower locations and a lot of other data (I am pretty anal myself about such things and am also one of those "analytical nerds" but, I swear, he puts me to shame, at least in the LMR frequency hunting and cataloging category!) and he can probably give you info about those "missing frequencies".

Just a thought, the county uses some 800MHz frequencies as data only for mobile data terminals. Also, there are special fall back and car-to-car channels as well. Without looking at the moment, it might be possible that those "extra" frequencies fall into one of these categories. Also, the entire RCS system is frequently being upgraded so it is always possible that these are newly added. But, like DDan said, all you really need are the control channels and the voice channels will be automatically accommodated through the data in the control channel (a nice thing about 800MHz trunking; well, VHF/UHF does too but you need the explicit band plan).

There will always be discrepancies between various sites - part of what makes it interesting to investigate! Welcome to the club!

-Mike

 

[chuckinsocal]

HI Mike and Dan,

I'm actually in the SE part of Carlsbad, on El Fuerte in La Costa. I have line of sight with the Encina Power Plant site and am pretty close, but not line of sight, to the Lake San Marcos site.

I've been a big fan and supporter of the Carlsbad PD for years. I listened to them from about 1990 until they converted to the RCS. Prior to conversion I ran out and bought an 800 Mhz Trunk Tracker so I'd be ready only to find out it was all digital and my scanner was useless . When digital scanners first came out they were about $700 including sales tax and it just was beyond my means for a toy.

I just recently learned that I could pick up a decent used scanner on the cheap so I bought a used BC 296D for $250. Should be here late next week or so.

So, now I'm doing my research into freqs, talk groups, etc. so I'll be ready to program it when it gets here. Gonna try to use Uniden's free program that I downloaded a few years ago "just in case". Hope it works. If not, I'll have to go manual.

So, all that being said, is there anything specific or unusual about the RCS I need to be aware of to get everything programmed right? I'm only gonna do the North Zone.

I think I'll start with all the freqs I got from the FCC as they seem to be the most reliable. If I start missing traffic, I'll have to figure out what I'm missing.

The freqs are: 856.1750, 856.2000, 857.1750, 857.2000, 858.1750, 858.2000, 859.2000, 860.1750, 860.2000, 860.2250, 861.0000, 861.1500, 861.2000, 862.1500, 862.2000, 863.0000, 863.1500, 863.2500, 864.2500, and 865.0000. These appear to be all the freqs being used by all the sites in the North Zone.

Anyway, thanks again for your responses. Hopefully we'll keep in touch.

Chuck Cannova

 

[W6KRU]

The 863.0 and 863.250 are not part of the No. zone. It is much easier than you are making it. Your 296 will do control channel only trunking. So the only freqs. you need are:
861.20000a 862.15000a 862.20000a 863.15000c

The 863.15 freq. is the normal control channel (CC). The others are the alternate CCs. You can put in the voice channels but it's not needed.

 

[Mike_G_D]

North Zone RCS

Chuck,

Like Dan said, you're making things way too hard on yourself - just enter the control channels and the rest is taken care of automatically. Even if there are new voice channels added, the controller will tell the units and your scanner where to go - transparent to you, that's what I was trying to explain in my last post.

The FCC site may have the most current list of licensed users BUT it is not necessarily the most accurate in describing who really uses what and where. Also, be aware that the FCC records CAN and DO contain errors, themselves! And many licenses that indicate expired status are really still being used, regardless of the legalities. Plus there are some oddballs out there that are not listed at all, for whatever reason (a radio renting/leasing service located in Los Angeles has the licenses but the radios are leased to an agency in Oceanside which actually uses the radios is one legal example). I have heard frequencies used by the Oceanside school district with repeaters on frequencies not in the FCC database as licensed to Oceanside at all (not MURS).

Anyway, I tend to side with sites like this and sites dedicated to the local area for the best info. The FCC is certainly a good research tool but far from the best source of data! Believe me, I have been into this for over 30 years now!

BTW - I sympathize with your problems back when the RCS started! I had a trunk tracker (Radio Shack Pro-90) and thought I could follow the changeover. I had been listening to Carlsbad PD, FD, etc. since about 1975 or so when they were on 155.835MHz simplex. I remember when they got their repeater on 156.030MHz and thought that was pretty cool! Anyway, I too was pretty disappointed when I found out about the digital switch! I wasn't able to obtain a digital trunk tracker until about 2004.

Anyway, oh yes, we will keep in touch!

-Mike
P.S.
Hey Dan, how's it hangin' dude? Maybe we need to think about a local get together along the lines of what those folks in the North did?!

 

[chuckinsocal]

Thanks again guys.

After reading the 296d manual last night I pretty much decided to program just the control channels and let the radio do the rest of the work. According to the manual, RCS is a "Plan 3 system", what ever that means, but apparently I need to program the scanner accordingly.

You're right guys, I am working way too hard on this. It's just part of my character to over analyze things in the interest of thoroughness. Sometimes it's a good thing, but often it's not. Oh well ...

I wasn't trying to say that the RR data was incorrect. Rather, I was just trying to understand the apparent discrepancies. That's all.

So now, I'll just wait for the scanner to arrive, program it, and hope it all works well. If it doesn't, you guys will probably hear me for asking guidance.

Now, all that being said, is there any reliable information regarding the rebanding of the RCS? As near as I can tell, it's all now subject to an international treaty with Mexico. Has anyone heard of a time frame?

Thanks again.

Chuck

 

[W6KRU]

Hiya Chuck. I am not sure about the rebanding stuff. I think RCS is exempt from rebanding because it is a "splinter" system but not sure of that. And that brings up a good point. When you program RCS make sure to set the system to splinter. I missed that tidbit when programming mine and it took me about an hour to figure it out.

I found the UASD software to be a little on the non-intuitive side and didn't like it much. The ARC396 was much better so I purchased it. I then subscribed to RR so that I could directly import the database settings into a new system. WOW. It is so easy you won't believe it. One night I got curious about SD PD. Five minutes later I had the whole system loaded and scanning. I also have Freescan loaded and have ran it a few times. It is better than UASD as well in my opinion and is free as well. Spend your time analyzing the software to see what fits you best.

 

[Mike_G_D]

rebanding and the San Diego County RCS

If you read the minutes from the RCS governing body meetings you will see that the rebanding issue is ongoing and is primarily being stalled (as far as I can determine) by negotiations with Mexico. I do not believe the fact that the system is splinter has anything to do with it, there's no reason why it should, anyway.

What I am curious about is which will come first, rebanding or full changeover to a full P25 system? I would have said the former but given the ongoing delays I'm beginning to wonder! The way I understand it, a true full P25 system is not affected by rebanding, at least not to the degree that a 3600baud Motorola system is. If they just go full P25 then they bypass the rebanding issue (at least for the trunking system) and considering how the negotiations with Mexico are going maybe this is a viable alternative!

-Mike

 

[chuckinsocal]

OK ... so I got ARCS 250 for the 296d and I set up the control freqs only and the talk groups organized the way I want them. But, there a couple of settings I don't understand:

PL/DPL - I set this to "None" but I don't know what all the number options mean.
MODE - Do I set this to AM, FM, WFM, or NFM?
STEP - I set to "Auto" but I'm not sure if I should choose one of the numbers.



Thanks

Chuck

 

[AlmostHandy]

I don't think those options are used on trunking systems.

Mode should corespond to the trunked system you're monitoring.
PL/DPL is for CTCSS/DCS Decoding.
This article explains the "Step" option.

(I could be wrong. It's not uncommon.)

 

[W6KRU]

Hey Chuck! I use none/auto/auto for the pl/mode/step and it works fine. So hows it going? What are you listening to so far?

 

[chuckinsocal]

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the info ... not listening to anything yet cuz I'm still waiting for the scanner to arrive. It should be here by the end of this week. When it does get here I'll be focusing on Carlsbad PD. They're my primary interest. After that OPD, SDSO in Vista, San Marcos, and Encinitas, and North Comm Fire. I have all those talk groups programmed.

Right now, I'm getting the program set up so when the scanner arrives all I have to do is upload the data to the scanner, turn it on, and be ready to listen. That's probably a little optimistic but at least I'll have a good head start.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Chuck