Future of aircraft hf/vhf comms monitoring

[jasonw]

Hi All

Just a question on the future of hf and vhf aircraft comms monitoring.
Today i was reading a tech mag and it had articles on the next ten top techknolgies and one was about a system which will have computers on planes communicating with each other and it also will advise the pilots of a flight level which to goto, so no need for ATC Comms via radio.
They want to replace radio comms with data comms and computers on each plane givingout flight levels instead of ATC Controllers.
Sounds like they are planning to phaseout ATC Controllers slowly and replace them with computer systems!!!!!!!.
One article on the net gave a time frame of 10-15yrs.
So i just woundering if someone out their might have more info on any future plans with radio comms either hf or vhf comms.
I would hate to lose the comms on hf and vhf to listen too!!!!!!!.
I found a number of documents about the "future of aircraft traffic control systems".
So hopefully the future radio comms doe's not just include onboard computers and satelite comms only!!!!!!.


Cheers from Jason in New Zealand.


p.s. They did say it is early days yet, but will implimented it slowly.

So hopefully someone will say that there is still a place for the old radio vhf/hf systems still.

 

[JoeyC]

Everything in this world is slow becoming computerized. ATC is no exception. ATC is actually far behind in technology than many industries. The computer systems will not replace the controller, just the voice. The controllers will be behind the computers. There will still be separation and sequencing dilemmas as weather, emergencies and other factors preclude a totally automated system. Have no fear, there will still be controllers behind the scenes, you just won't hear them as you do now.

 

[AngelFire91]

Yeah, I'm scared that everything in the air will become computerised. There are already TCAS (Traffic, Collision, Advoidance, System) that offer Resolution Advisory's. The TCAS system in your plane is "Talking" to the other TCAS systems in the other planes and when a 1 mile ring around the planes is intruded on it tells the pilot what to do, and here is the crazy part...Most 121 (United, Delta,...)and 135 (Commuters) have to do what the TCAS says, if it says "Climb! Climb!" or "Descend! Descend!" they are required to do it, even if the ATController tells them otherwise. Some of the newer planes it's incorperated into the Autopilot (AP) and the AP will do whatever the TCAS says. I don't know about you but I would like to remain in control of my aircraft and make my own descisions.

Some good things are comming out of technology though. Mesaba, and I believe Southwest are now experimenting with an onboard weather reporter that automatically reports the flight conditions. (Good bye pilot reports.)

ACARS...How cool is this! you can communicate with ground crew, send and recieve messages, get weather and gate assignments, Maint. crews can recieve information about what's wrong with a specific planes in flight, and so much more.

and now the FAA is experimenting with Vertical Path Guidance computers, and Vertical GPS navigation to make GPS Approaches to Precision minimums.

But you know what...In my opinion, give me my good old ADF/NDB and a compass, I'll show you how it's done!!! :wink:

Kevin

 

[JoeyC]

Unfortunately controllers can and have made mistakes as well. As the pilot in charge, you are obligated to take whatever measures are necessary to steer clear of a castrophic situation, even if that means going against what the controller (or computer) has instructed you to do. (Of course you're obliged to answer to your actions when safely on the ground again.) I think the computer aided ATC age is definately a good thing. Computers don't make mistakes, people do, and all computer "mistakes" are attributed to humans in the long run anyway.

 

[Lynch_Christopher]

Its going to be a very very long time before computers take over for controllers. I wouldn't count on it anytime soon.

 

[davidmc36]

Its going to be a very very long time before computers take over for controllers. I wouldn't count on it anytime soon.

No exactly taking over but having a pivotal role currently.

http://www.ads-b.com/home.htm

http://www.navcanada.ca/navcanada.a...onFiles\Newsroom\NewsReleases\2006\nr0719.xml

 

[OK2BCK]

I agree

Its going to be a very very long time before computers take over for controllers. I wouldn't count on it anytime soon.

Common sense is telling me that there will always be "real-man-voice" on air regardless on the technology used.

 

[poltergeisty]

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/issue/columns/12748.html

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1108/112408n1.htm

 

[immelmen]

Don't worry, its not going to happen any time soon at all. not even close. Bottom line, to develop the on board system, adapt it for every type in the fleet, get it "TSO'd" and then actually install them would be so cost prohibitive it would bankrupt most major airlines. They have bigger problems to worry about when they threaten liquidation if pilots/mechanics don't take pay cuts. As the ol saying goes, "if it hasn't killed anyone, don't fix it.".....AM voice for ATC will be around for a looooong time.

 

[poltergeisty]

Yeah, I have heard similar thoughts about the idea of ATC going P25. That makes sense especially with the state of the economy right now.

 

[davidmc36]

Yeah, I have heard similar thoughts about the idea of ATC going P25. That makes sense especially with the state of the economy right now.

I heard noise of sombody promoting the idea of going digital many years ago. I know many in the industry are not warm to the idea that generally with digital it is either on or off. They like the idea that even if things are less than ideal you would still be able to get message through with analog so long as there was a faint signal.

 

[N_Jay]

Yeah, I have heard similar thoughts about the idea of ATC going P25. That makes sense especially with the state of the economy right now.

WHERE have you heard that?

The Avionics Magazine article you linked was about TACTICAL communications, not ATC.

 

[N_Jay]

I heard noise of sombody promoting the idea of going digital many years ago. I know many in the industry are not warm to the idea that generally with digital it is either on or off. They like the idea that even if things are less than ideal you would still be able to get message through with analog so long as there was a faint signal.

It is more than "noise.

It is an FAA program called NEXCOM, it is just moving along ever so slowly.

http://hf.tc.faa.gov/projects/nexcom.htm

 

[majoco]

The pilot is in charge of the aircraft - ATC is really only advisory. The "Golden Rule" is AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE! So fly the aircraft, get out of danger THEN tell the man what you are doing!

ALL the computer systems in the world will not remove from the pilot the ultimate responsibility of flying the aircraft. What if there is a total electrical failure on the aircraft - you have one VHF com, one Nav receiver and 'puff'n'blow' instruments running on batteries remaining operational - who yer gonna call - a computer? No way.

 

[poltergeisty]

WHERE have you heard that?

The Avionics Magazine article you linked was about TACTICAL communications, not ATC.

It is an FAA program called NEXCOM, it is just moving along ever so slowly

That's! What I was searching for. Thought it was some kind of P25 digital system. :lol: Wouldn't make sense anyways seen as how it's an "open" stranded for public safety.

 

[K4DHR]

Digital radios have been tossed around by the FAA for the past 9-10 years at least, and still nothing has come of it. Until there was global acceptance of such a system, it would require anyone flying internationally to carry two sets of radios and would require the FAA to maintain an extra set of equipment at every place that has a radio to accommodate aircraft from other nations still on AM. If your metric of it moving along is that the FAA conducts another study every few years so they can claim it would be acceptable on paper, then yes, it is moving along. I'd like to think I stay relatively current on such topics and I haven't heard a peep about any actual equipment testing in any live aircraft.

It isn't quite as simple as your local public safety department switching to digital.

 

[N_Jay]

That's! What I was searching for. Thought it was some kind of P25 digital system. :lol: Wouldn't make sense anyways seen as how it's an "open" stranded for public safety.

While it might have made sense to leverage some of the attributes and therefore some of the technology, it is a VERY different set of requirements and therefore a very different solution created by a very different set of companies managed under a very different structure.

 

[immelmen]

Digital radios have been tossed around by the FAA for the past 9-10 years at least, and still nothing has come of it.

and nothing ever will.....they have been talking about actually requiring more then 5 hours sleep for part 121 crews but that is still a fantasy because of "cost".

 

[DPD1]

The acknowledgment of instructions is obviously everything. Without that acknowledgment, there is no guarantee or understanding between the aircraft and controller. There's very subtle nuances involved in speaking over the radio which conveys intent and acknowledging instructions, which is a huge part of making everything work right. Some of the more mundane stuff might be switched to data, like communicating with dispatchers and such, which they're already doing. And I suppose HF could be replaced by sat. But overall, I don't see basic voice comm going anywhere, or there being any sort of protocol involved that couldn't be monitored.

Dave
www.DPDProductions.com
Antennas & Accessories for the RF Professional & Radio Hobbyist

 

[N_Jay]

and nothing ever will.....they have been talking about actually requiring more then 5 hours sleep for part 121 crews but that is still a fantasy because of "cost".

Well, it's still in the budget.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ysengsaf/cip/files/FY08-12_CIP_Appendix_A.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/aba/budgets_brief/media/bib2008.pdf

Maybe some people don't realize how long term a program it is and incorrect expectations?