Gama Test Team: Uniden Home Patrol - P25 / Simlucast FINDINGS

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Alliance01TX

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Gama Test Team Initial Findings - Testing in Progress

P25 and Simulcasts in the 850 MHz

Uniden Users with Home Patrol (HP-1) and Perhaps the Newer X386 Products (as we do-not have the new models) might try this and again 536/436 might have this option - do not know...

Recently our area in Northeast Tarrant County (DFW) in Texas cut-over to a new Motorola P25 System that is on three (3) Towers in Simulcast mode. This is a 850 MHZ System and that is the ONLY area we want to listen and test with in this discussion. Keep it real simple...

As expected some real changes in perception and reality.

First the infamous Voice Quality (bassy - tin) is as advertised much harder for some (not all) to hear and get accustomed to over weeks.

Then the on-going and much discussed P25 Decode with the additive Simulcasting situation (issues) which often leads to missed transmission, speech-garble and drop-outs and the resultant Dispatch and-or end-users not using the Mic properly at times as a bonus.

We, like most tried the OPEN Squelch and turning Off Search Capabilities with some marginal improvements. We used both the Stock and External Antenna Configurations with generally a bit of improvement (as expected) on the external Antenna(s) - we tried more than one and different locations...

Then we tried something a bit Radical that we want to share with HP-1 and perhaps might be worth a Test on the other Uniden Models (especially the new ones) that Support P25.

Again - this is-not a "fix all" and test are in-progress so wanted your consideration to test same, if your scanner can be re-configured as I will note in a second....

First - Any Changes are at your-Own Risk!

Second - Back up All Systems / FAVS / Files / Audio / Freq whatsoever prior to attempting anything noted as this is a GAMA TEST.

Lastly, for those of us with reading or comprehension issues, see items one and two above until you "get it" please....At your own risk - Back it Up or Risk Losing all data..

Here what we did on the HP-1 (Home Patrol) and again - Testing in Progress:

In the HP-1 in ADVANCED Settings we went to the BAND PLAN Section, which either by "Default" or via RR-db Download had Band Plan 0 (Zero) in the 700 MHZ Range and at 6.25 NB.

We then DELETED this 700 MHZ Band Plan.

Next we went to the only other active Band Plan - Band Plan1which was 851.nnnn at 6.25 KHz

We DELETED That Band Plan.

NOW for the NEW Configs:

We entered NEW "Discrete" Plan Plans - One Each for EACH of the System Control Channels and Voice Channels and all set at 6.25 KHz. Meaning we entered each Frequency as a "Band PLan" with 6.25 Khz.

Thus, we now have TEN (10) Band Plans ( 0-9) that are each at 6.25 Khz wide.

Initial results:

The set up using the Stock Antenna has perceived much better reception on this specific 850 Mhz P25 Simulcast System. We have what appears to be more clear reception on the audio. We do still have some amount of 'voice-garble' with the Search ON - So more testing needed with Squelch, Search and then later to external antenna...bandwidth configs...

Just wanted to share this and it may or may-not have a huge bearing on your specific P25 (SIMO) situation nor is it clear on the internal software / hardware interactions this Band Plan Change made as we are not privy to those areas of Engineering / Design...

We will also test the bandwidth by decreasing / increasing...more test...test and Test..

If you have the capabilities you might try this and see if it makes a difference and post meaningful (fact based) responses would be appreciated. Back your gear up prior...

Team GAMA
 

RBMTS

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I have a question. Who Is the "GAMA Test Team" ? Is this Uniden engineers/programmers trying to find solutions to receive problems with HP1 or BCx36 scanners? Or are you an individual that is calling themselves a "test team" but has no official connection with Uniden in any way other than being an owner and wishing to help find a solution for the rest of the general population?

I appreciate this info and will definitely try it. I'm curious as to what your affiliation is (if any) with Uniden as this thread could be perceived to be an official response/notice from Uniden of field testing being performed.

Just want to be sure. Again, thank you for the suggestions.
 

KE4ZNR

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I have a question. Who Is the "GAMA Test Team" ? Is this Uniden engineers/programmers trying to find solutions to receive problems with HP1 or BCx36 scanners?
This "GAMA Test Team" is not affiliated with Uniden in any way, shape or form.

Or are you an individual that is calling themselves a "test team" but has no official connection with Uniden in any way other than being an owner and wishing to help find a solution for the rest of the general population?
This would be a good assumption.

I appreciate this info and will definitely try it. I'm curious as to what your affiliation is (if any) with Uniden as this thread could be perceived to be an official response/notice from Uniden of field testing being performed.
The ONLY person allowed to post official notices and responses from Uniden is UPMan. No one else. Not Me, Not Alliance01TX, not you. Just UPMan.

With the above being said it is always good to think outside the box and see what may improve reception. :)
Marshall KE4ZNR
 

whsbuss

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This "GAMA Test Team" is not affiliated with Uniden in any way, shape or form.



This would be a good assumption.



The ONLY person allowed to post official notices and responses from Uniden is UPMan. No one else. Not Me, Not Alliance01TX, not you. Just UPMan.

With the above being said it is always good to think outside the box and see what may improve reception. :)
Marshall KE4ZNR
I totally agree. Testing like this can bring potential fixes by trying to see what works and does not. Look at the NFM/FM workaround that helped some users.
 

Alliance01TX

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Team GAMA

Hey Randy (all)

Thanks for the note.

We are not in any way affiliated or linked to Uniden or any other Company in this line of business - good question and deserves a straight answer. "Think-Tank" types....

Former USAF ( Tech Controllers ) and Ham Radio guys...and a lot of International Testing & Trouble-Shooting experience in various Radio Systems / Networks...were we saw the "experts" often saying "Doing this - or - doing that will not change anything..." and often they were right, yet sometimes they (like Edison) were always Hearing, but not always capable of "listening"....and collectively we solved a a real-tough technical issue once in a while...

The only Problem is the Solution we have-not Found...yet...

So that's the story and please let us know what you find as well please....

Thanks again!

Team GAMA
 

JamesO

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I am guessing?????

With the Bandplan typically being broadcast and downloaded by the Control Channel, if the Control Channel is full of errors due to multipath, then is the Control Channel supplied Bandplan volatile??

Maybe hard coding the Bandplan in the scanner will eliminate a possible issue where the Bandplan is corrupted or dropping out of the scanner??

Would be helpful to understand how the Bandplan is derived and stored when acquired from the Control Channel vs being programmed in by the end user.

This may offer some more insight to problem trunked networks and have issues with stability.
 

Alliance01TX

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James - Spot on and we do-not know either, yet early test show improvements...more testing and if a few folks can at least try this Test Mode we might stumble onto a reasonable solution or three that could be patched perhaps...It will not fix the Decode per se, but might improve (remove) some of the additive issue sets...

When in doubt Test, when finished Test again after Power has been cycled as we used to say - LOL

Thx

Bill
 

Alliance01TX

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Fort Worth Regional Radio System Project 25 Phase I
Specifically the Northeast Tarrant Count section (P25 - Phase 1)
SYS: 044Ah Site 1-003
 

whsbuss

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Fort Worth Regional Radio System Project 25 Phase I
Specifically the Northeast Tarrant Count section (P25 - Phase 1)
SYS: 044Ah Site 1-003
Not sure but I didn't find that particular system nor any band plan info. I'd like to try something similar on my friend's new 436 that's here for programming (on Motorola SmartZone II).
 

KevinC

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This is interesting because according to UPMan if the system broadcasts the bandplan and you manually change it will revert back to what is broadcast as soon as it decodes it...unless this changed with the x36HP-series radios.

You could probably test this by making the bandplan something absurd and see if the scanner still works, I bet it would.

The GRE-based scanners have a "P25 Manual" system that lets you ignore any broadcast bandplan and use your own.

ETA...

I tried it and the scanner still works. I changed bandplans 0 and 1 to the 150 MHz range and the radio still tracks 7/800 calls just fine.
 
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whsbuss

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This is interesting because according to UPMan if the system broadcasts the bandplan and you manually change it will revert back to what is broadcast as soon as it decodes it...unless this changed with the x36HP-series radios.

You could probably test this by making the bandplan something absurd and see if the scanner still works, I bet it would.

The GRE-based scanners have a "P25 Manual" system that lets you ignore any broadcast bandplan and use your own.

ETA...

I tried it and the scanner still works. I changed bandplans 0 and 1 to the 150 MHz range and the radio still tracks 7/800 calls just fine.
So the OP is just seeing a placebo effect.
 

JamesO

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I can see the usefulness of the Bandplan being captured by the scanner from the Control Channel, however, I also do not know how volatile the auto Bandplan is??

So I could see some value in allowing the user to lock/ignore the Bandplan as captured by the scanner as maybe the Bandplan could be corrupted or drop out from time to time due to multipath or a marginal CC.

Unless I am wrong the Bandplan is pretty static and should not change often. I see no reason for the scanner to continually try and can spend time and resources worrying about the Bandplan once it has been captured or entered by the end user.

Assume the Bandplan is hard coded or programmed into remote radios in real Trunk systems? Unless maybe when a mutual aid situation comes up and a remote radio has to cut over to a neighboring system, the Bandplan may need to be acquired?
 

Alliance01TX

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If you can read you would have noted about 5 times that Testing is not completed nor finished. So rather than offering useful inputs you jump to the end of the book I suppose?

Yes- we do see the reload of the 700 band plan and the reload of the 800 plan from the CC, and the adds in the other 8 discrete are still present.

So as all test outside a Lab and without costly Test Gear is "highly subjective" I suspect we get more data before making a final determination - how would you Test as clearly you must have deep experience?

Bill
 

KevinC

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If you can read you would have noted about 5 times that Testing is not completed nor finished. So rather than offering useful inputs you jump to the end of the book I suppose?

Yes- we do see the reload of the 700 band plan and the reload of the 800 plan from the CC, and the adds in the other 8 discrete are still present.

So as all test outside a Lab and without costly Test Gear is "highly subjective" I suspect we get more data before making a final determination - how would you Test as clearly you must have deep experience?

Bill
Who are you replying to?
 

Alliance01TX

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Post above that Placebo effect only.

Not yours.

We still see Garble as noted on first note - so guess can not read...

Appreciate inputs and as noted this is-not a Fix All only testing...

Bill
 
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