Getting ready to take the Technician and General tests next month. Question on Bands

Hawkman

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I find the frequency/band relationship a bit confusing. Before starting this, I had the very simplistic idea that all the amateur radio frequencies were one contiguous section. I quickly learned it was instead segments all over the radio wave spectrum. I drew out my own chart from looking at other charts online. I marked in where CB, GMRS, AM FM broadcast, radar, etc reside. I grasp the lower frequencies are longer and travel further.

I am having trouble understanding why one-minute hams are talking frequencies and the next-minute talking bands. I assume band length refers to the actual length of the wave as it makes a complete cycle. Higher bands are higher frequencies.

1. Is there a standard range of frequencies contained within every band?
2. As frequency changes, wavelength has to change, so it seems to me that the "band would also change

Can anyone explain this in idiot-proof terms? Better yet, can anyone point to a video presentation that breaks this down in simple terms? I would like to understand it and not just memorize it.

Thanks in advance to anyone who makes an effort to respond to this.
 

cavmedic

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Your “bands” are your grouped wavelength.
Frequencies are specified within the “bands” or within the band wavelength grouping.

“Hey switch to 146.52”
“ I worked Joe on 2 meters last night”

146.52 falls within the “2 meter band” it’s interchangeable

My advice, is stick to your technician for quite a while until you are comfortable with most things within your operating privileges and license class, you can operate the basic radio functions of VHF, UHF and HF ( 10 meters) THEN upgrade to general.

You might be biting off
more than you can chew at once
 

Hawkman

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My advice, is stick to your technician for quite a while until you are comfortable with most things within your operating privileges and license class, you can operate the basic radio functions of VHF, UHF and HF ( 10 meters) THEN upgrade to general.

You might be biting off
more than you can chew at once
I really appreciate your response to the question.

On the testing advice, you are the first one out of several who did not advise me to shoot for both. At this point, I am getting very high 80s and 90s on my Technician practice tests and am partway into my General course. My test is a month away. I think I have to go for it. I will either pass the general or flunk it. If I flunk it, the problem is solved. If I pass it, I don't see how it can possibly handicap me from learning the practical lessons I will pick up along the way.

Follow-up Question - Is there a rule or formula to specify the frequency where one band stops and another band starts, or is that simply rote memorization?
 
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belvdr

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I really appreciate your response to the question.

On the testing advice, you are the first one out of several who did not advise me to shoot for both. At this point, I am getting very high 80s and 90s on my Technician practice tests and am partway into my General course. My test is a month away. I think I have to go for it. I will either pass the general or flunk it. If I flunk it, the problem is solved. If I pass it, I don't see how it can possibly handicap me from learning the practical lessons I will pick up along the way.
Agreed. If you pass the general, they’ll offer you the Extra. Might as well take it. It costs nothing and if you pass it, then you’re done with testing. Nothing lost if you fail.
 

mmckenna

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I really appreciate your response to the question.

On the testing advice, you are the first one out of several who did not advise me to shoot for both.

Be careful of who you listen to. A lot of what you hear/read is pure bragging. I'm not impressed with that sort of stuff, they get too focused on winning/passing, that they often fail to learn the subject material well. You'll find these sorts of people in any hobby. Take your time and learn the material, not just memorize. Actually learning the material will make you a much better ham. There's far too many hams that are only able to memorize answers, but could in no way tell you what the answer means.


At this point, I am getting very high 80s and 90s on my Technician practice tests and am partway into my General course. My test is a month away. I think I have to go for it. I will either pass the general or flunk it. If I flunk it, the problem is solved. If I pass it, I don't see how it can possibly handicap me from learning the practical lessons I will pick up along the way.

If you feel like going for both, then do it. Like you said, if you flunk the general, you got your answer. You can always go take it again. It's not a race. Nothing at all wrong with being a tech for a while. General is fine if you plan on working the HF bands, but there's nothing wrong with starting slow and working your way up. Don't pressure yourself, and don't let anyone else pressure you. Plus, it's an expensive hobby, so easing into it is always a good idea. Way too easy to rush and blow a lot of money only to find out that your interests lie elsewhere.

I took my tech license way back in the late 80's. Didn't take my general at the time because my morse code was a bit rough. Then never got around to it until about 10-15 years ago. Every now and then I think of getting my extra, but then I realize that I likely won't use the extra frequency allocations, and I honestly don't really care. Maybe when I retire, I'll take it, but I'm not holding my breath.

Follow-up Question - Is there a rule or formula to specify the frequency where one band stops and another band starts, or is that simply rote memorization?

Memorization worked for me, but everyone learns a bit differently. The HF bands are mostly harmonics of each other 3.5, 7, 14MHz, etc...
The question pool won't ask you all those band related questions, and chances are if you are at least familiar with the questions, you'll be able to eliminate most of the multiple choice answers.

And if you miss a few and don't get 100% that's OK, no one is going to know.

Remember to have fun.
 

cavmedic

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I really appreciate your response to the question.

On the testing advice, you are the first one out of several who did not advise me to shoot for both. At this point, I am getting very high 80s and 90s on my Technician practice tests and am partway into my General course. My test is a month away. I think I have to go for it. I will either pass the general or flunk it. If I flunk it, the problem is solved. If I pass it, I don't see how it can possibly handicap me from learning the practical lessons I will pick up along the way.

Follow-up Question - Is there a rule or formula to specify the frequency where one band stops and another band starts, or is that simply rote memorization?
My advice was based on years of listening to questions being asked on the air and on different forums that was technician based theory by EXTRA class operators who went from zero to “hero” in one sitting or one month.

Your band edges will basically be memorization. As will your operating privileges within those bands.

Some things you just have to memorize as formulas and equations while operating would be like going around your “Azz to get to your elbow” and very inefficient.

And it never hurts to keep a band chart by your station just to make sure and double check as you are tuning around before you jump to key up. But some things you just need to know for the test, and some things you will never use again.
 

Hawkman

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I will probably be banned as a lunatic but.... I have to vent. I invite any and everyone to tell me if anything I said below is wrong.

I think I partially found my own answer.
Band is based on wavelength. Actually, Wavelength and band (length) are the same thing
The formula for finding Wavelength in meters is found by - 300/ frequency in MHz (so that should also be the formula for finding bandwidth)
So, 300/14.25 MHz = 21.052 it is clear that 14.25MHz falls in the 20(s) meter band

however
300/4.000MHz = 75 BUT that is in the 80-meter band according to a chart I have.
Who calls 4.000MHz part of the 80-meter band and why??? By my calculations, it should be the 70-meter band. Where am I going wrong?

I am not saying I necessarily need this to pass the test, but I do need it to make sense of what bands cover what frequencies.
 
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K7MEM

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Or, if you are only interested in US Amateur Radio Bands, you could get this nice chart from the ARRL. Many amateur operators keep this chart as a handy reference.

Don't worry too much about the Frequency and Band references. The Frequency reference is the one that is important. Band has been. e.g. 75/80, has been passed down over time and is just a general reference. Areas intended for CB, GMRS, AM FM broadcast, radar, etc are nice to know, but should not be used with ham transmitters/transceivers. Also note that the actual band usage is divided up between various modes. For example, here is an expanded view of the 2 Meter band. Note that most of 2 Meters is gobbled up by FM Repeaters. If your interest is in FM Repeaters, that's great.

As far as stopping at the Tech license or go for the General, I recommend that you go for the General. Even take a stab at the Extra, if you pass the General. It is way too early in your Amateur career to know what aspect of Amateur Radio you will like.

Some of the reasoning, to go to General or Extra, is on the chart linked above. Just look at the allocations for "N,T" (Novice, Technician) as opposed to "G" (General) and "E" (Extra). While "N,T" has good allocations on 6 Meters and above, the lower band access (10M to 160M) is very limited. Of course, you could learn Morse Code and operate on 80, 40, and 15 Meters, but that is your choice.

I have been licensed for a long time (58 years) and held a Novice license for a very long time (~30 years), before I bothered to upgrade. However, I was a CW operator (Morse Code) all that time and was happy with my band allocations. Even when I was living in Germany (1980-1984) and operating as DA2EU, I stuck to the US Novice frequencies and operated CW only. It wasn't until 1999 that I decided to go all the way to Extra. I still mostly operate in the "N,T" areas, but sometimes go to the low end of each band where the CW DX is good.

Good luck with your tests.
 

popnokick

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Higher bands are higher frequencies.
Not sure what you meant by "higher bands". If you mean higher numbers, then no. Higher (larger numbered) bands are lower frequencies. Band numbers and frequencies are inversely proportional. So a very low band number, e.g. 2 Meters.... is a higher freq (145-149 mHz). A larger (higher) band number e.g. 160 Meters is a lower freq (1.8 mHz). If you're into the formula (Velocity = Freq x Wavelength) you can ponder the question, "Where are frequency and meter band the same?" Hint: it happens in the 17 Meter band.
 

AK9R

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Allow me to make a point about the tests.

The Technician test (FCC Element 2) will consist of 35 questions taken from a pool of over 400 possible questions. This pool is divided into several sub-elements. There is a specified pattern in how the questions on each copy of the test are taken from the sub-elements in the pool.

For example, Sub-element T1 covers the Commission's rules. The pool for Sub-element T1 has 6 groups of questions and each of the 6 groups has 11-12 questions. Each individual exam will consist of 6 questions from those 6 groups. In other words, there may only be 1 question on your test which asks about the material in Group T1A.

My point is that don't get wrapped around the axle because you find a particular topic difficult to understand or memorize. Don't assume that all of the questions on the test you take will cover that topic that you struggle with. It won't. The test is designed to cover the breadth of the material you need to know to have a Technician license, not to focus on a particular topic.

Also, your test will have 35 questions on it. You will need to answer 26 of those questions correctly. IOW, you can answer up to 9 questions incorrectly and still pass the test. Don't let your struggles with a particular topic keep you from taking the test.

Here's an example from when I took the Extra test. I struggle with Smith charts. I understand the concept, but I am no means an expert with Smith charts. There were, I think, 2 or 3 questions on my Extra test about Smith charts and I'm sure I got them wrong. I still answered enough questions correctly on the entire test to pass and get my Extra license.

A 2- or 4-year college degree doesn't prove that you know anything. It only proves that you understood or memorized enough to pass the exams. Hopefully, you understood enough that going forward in your career, you know where to find the information and have the ability to grasp the new things that you learn in your working career. Same with amateur radio. Passing a Technician test doesn't prove that you know everything. But, passing the test and getting your license does show that you've been exposed to the topics you might run across in your amateur radio career. It's a license to learn and the learning never stops.
 

jhooten

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300/4.000MHz = 75 BUT that is in the 80-meter band according to a chart I have.
Who calls 4.000MHz part of the 80-meter band and why??? By my calculations, it should be the 70-meter band. Where am I going wrong?


Some people refer to 80 meters for the lower part of the "band" where digital modes are used and 75 meters for the upper part of the band normally used for voice modes.

The formula also works in reverse. 300/80=3.75 Mhz, BTW

Now as if you are not confused enough here are two examples that should add to the confusion. Cavmedic used the example “ I worked Joe on 2 meters last night”. Technically that is incorrect. It should be “ I worked Joe on the 2 meter band last night”. 2 meters is 150Mhz which is not a frequency allocated to Amateur radio. Middle of the band would be 2.0547 Meters. For the sake of simplicity it gets rounded off to 2 meters. 10 Meters is another. 10 meters is 30 Mhz which is, again, out side of the band but is simpler than saying ten and a half meters.

I said all that to say this. There is no apparent logic to band number assignments. And some of the confusion comes from the actual frequency assignments changing over the years while the customary band names remaining constant.
 

ladn

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I am having trouble understanding why one-minute hams are talking frequencies and the next-minute talking bands. I assume band length refers to the actual length of the wave as it makes a complete cycle. Higher bands are higher frequencies.
That's the general idea.

Hams seem to like to adhere to the archaic band naming convention using wavelengths that goes back to the early days of radio. I've been a ham for more than 30 years, and involved in radio/electronics for even longer and I still find this confusing. That's part of the "charm" ambience of ham radio. It's sort of the same as why hams insist on using Morse code era "Q" codes on FM repeaters.

You can think of a "band" as a collection of related frequencies, but the grouping can be imprecise. For instance, the VHF band (according to the ITU) goes from 30 MHz to 300 MHz. Within that, we have the 6 meter ham band (50-54 MHz), the 2 meter ham band (144-148 MHz in the USA) and the 1.25 meter ham band (222-225 MHz).
 

Hawkman

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I can not thank all of you enough for the GREAT replies. Having a group like yourselves to bounce ideas off is a huge benefit. Otherwise, I would be muttering to myself. I have always been plagued by a need to understand. Memorizing something I don't understand kind of leaves me unsettled. Several of the explanations that, while generally correct, all the band designations are not precisely correct helped. Thanks to ladn and Jahooten

AK9R - point well made. While I might struggle to score 68-70 on one section, I will likely only see a few questions from that 20-question section. I think I safely have the technician section nailed, so I will hit this Band/frequency section of the general course one more time and move on. It is the first section in the General prep course I am taking online.

Popnokick: "Not sure what you meant by "higher bands." If you mean higher numbers, then no. Higher (larger numbered) bands are lower frequencies." Bingo, you are dead on, and I am glad you caught me in that misstatement. I fully understand that, but still, on occasion, I have the impulse to forget the band length is getting higher (longer) as the frequency gets lower unless I STOP TO THINK. Hopefully, it will become one of those things I don't have to even stop to think about in the next month or so.

Thanks again to all of you for the information and links to charts, etc. (wtp and K7MEM)
I have to say that the bunch of you made this forum function about as well as a forum can to support amateur radio and help new members who are trying to get involved.
 

cavmedic

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Some people refer to 80 meters for the lower part of the "band" where digital modes are used and 75 meters for the upper part of the band normally used for voice modes.

The formula also works in reverse. 300/80=3.75 Mhz, BTW

Now as if you are not confused enough here are two examples that should add to the confusion. Cavmedic used the example “ I worked Joe on 2 meters last night”. Technically that is incorrect. It should be “ I worked Joe on the 2 meter band last night”. 2 meters is 150Mhz which is not a frequency allocated to Amateur radio. Middle of the band would be 2.0547 Meters. For the sake of simplicity it gets rounded off to 2 meters. 10 Meters is another. 10 meters is 30 Mhz which is, again, out side of the band but is simpler than saying ten and a half meters.

I said all that to say this. There is no apparent logic to band number assignments. And some of the confusion comes from the actual frequency assignments changing over the years while the customary band names remaining constant.

This kinda reminds me of
Cool whip being pronounced Cool hwip
 

fog

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On the testing advice, you are the first one out of several who did not advise me to shoot for both. At this point, I am getting very high 80s and 90s on my Technician practice tests and am partway into my General course. My test is a month away. I think I have to go for it. I will either pass the general or flunk it. If I flunk it, the problem is solved. If I pass it, I don't see how it can possibly handicap me from learning the practical lessons I will pick up along the way.

Follow-up Question - Is there a rule or formula to specify the frequency where one band stops and another band starts, or is that simply rote memorization?

Personally, my advice if you weren't already happily studying for General would be to study for one license class, but shoot for the stars when taking the exam.

Just as an example, aiming to take Tech + General in one session means memorizing the band edges/privileges for both license classes, versus taking Technician and then being able to forget them and study for General.

But, if you're already studying for both, keep at it! It can certainly be done!

I will probably be banned as a lunatic but.... I have to vent. I invite any and everyone to tell me if anything I said below is wrong.

I think I partially found my own answer.
Band is based on wavelength. Actually, Wavelength and band (length) are the same thing
The formula for finding Wavelength in meters is found by - 300/ frequency in MHz (so that should also be the formula for finding bandwidth)
So, 300/14.25 MHz = 21.052 it is clear that 14.25MHz falls in the 20(s) meter band

however
300/4.000MHz = 75 BUT that is in the 80-meter band according to a chart I have.
Who calls 4.000MHz part of the 80-meter band and why??? By my calculations, it should be the 70-meter band. Where am I going wrong?

I am not saying I necessarily need this to pass the test, but I do need it to make sense of what bands cover what frequencies.

You must be new here -- if we banned people for being lunatics, the site would get lonely really fast. ;) Everything you wrote is mathematically correct, though.

This reminds me of a bit of advice I was given as a new shooter asking about different calibers of ammunition: treat the numbers as names, and don't think too hard about them. For example, a 9mm bullet measures 0.355", which is the same width as a .380. But a .357 Magnum bullet is actually .357", so a .357 is wider than a .380. That hurt my head, but I have no problem accepting that the name ".357 Magnum" refers to something much bigger than ".380 ACP."

So, from your example, 14.25 MHz should technically be the "21-meter band," but that band is named "20 meters." Your math is impeccable, but the same can't be said of the people who were naming the bands. I'm guessing "80 meters" was named for the midpoint of the band.

Allow me to make a point about the tests.

The Technician test (FCC Element 2) will consist of 35 questions taken from a pool of over 400 possible questions. This pool is divided into several sub-elements. There is a specified pattern in how the questions on each copy of the test are taken from the sub-elements in the pool.

For example, Sub-element T1 covers the Commission's rules. The pool for Sub-element T1 has 6 groups of questions and each of the 6 groups has 11-12 questions. Each individual exam will consist of 6 questions from those 6 groups. In other words, there may only be 1 question on your test which asks about the material in Group T1A.

My point is that don't get wrapped around the axle because you find a particular topic difficult to understand or memorize. Don't assume that all of the questions on the test you take will cover that topic that you struggle with. It won't. The test is designed to cover the breadth of the material you need to know to have a Technician license, not to focus on a particular topic.

Also, your test will have 35 questions on it. You will need to answer 26 of those questions correctly. IOW, you can answer up to 9 questions incorrectly and still pass the test. Don't let your struggles with a particular topic keep you from taking the test.

Here's an example from when I took the Extra test. I struggle with Smith charts. I understand the concept, but I am no means an expert with Smith charts. There were, I think, 2 or 3 questions on my Extra test about Smith charts and I'm sure I got them wrong. I still answered enough questions correctly on the entire test to pass and get my Extra license.

A 2- or 4-year college degree doesn't prove that you know anything. It only proves that you understood or memorized enough to pass the exams. Hopefully, you understood enough that going forward in your career, you know where to find the information and have the ability to grasp the new things that you learn in your working career. Same with amateur radio. Passing a Technician test doesn't prove that you know everything. But, passing the test and getting your license does show that you've been exposed to the topics you might run across in your amateur radio career. It's a license to learn and the learning never stops.

+1 to this. I studied for General and got lucky, passing Extra with the minimum passing score. Full disclosure: I still don't get Smith charts, but some day I'll be curious and learn them.

Not to say (nor is AK9R saying) you should just ignore parts you find difficult, nor that you shouldn't lean into your curiosity, but I love the advice of not treating the exam as the end. Ultimately, when you pass, the VEs are going to circle your new license class on the CSCE and sign their names, and your raw score doesn't really get recorded anywhere. (Technically, at least for the ARRL, the answer sheet which does have the score on it is sent back to the ARRL, but I don't think the FCC ever sees it.)

This kinda reminds me of
Cool whip being pronounced Cool hwip

I am so angry that this is actually an insightful answer. :ROFLMAO:
 

Hawkman

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This reminds me of a bit of advice I was given as a new shooter asking about different calibers of ammunition: treat the numbers as names, and don't think too hard about them. For example, a 9mm bullet measures 0.355", which is the same width as a .380. But a .357 Magnum bullet is actually .357", so a .357 is wider than a .380. That hurt my head, but I have no problem accepting that the name ".357 Magnum" refers to something much bigger than ".380 ACP."
I am glad you made that analogy. It makes me a little more tolerant of the inaccuracies in Ham jargon. I have been a gun guy since I was a kid. I was in law enforcement for years, and my son is a firearms instructor for the federal government. Until you listed all the imprecise terminology with firearm calibers, I never stopped to realize how bad it is. It is just stuff I accepted as "the way it is". It is a good analogy.
--- The technology is based on sound hard science, BUT the lingo does not necessarily follow suit.
 
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