Getting Talkgroups Via Public Records Request

swfluncensored

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Hi all,

Quick and simple - is it possible to, from either a public records request or some sort of other formal procedure, gather talkgroups?

I am local to Lee County, Florida. I have gathered that since radio talkgroups from public safety agencies are technically considered public information, is it possible to get a list of these talkgroups and site frequencies with a public records request, or some other form of request/formality? I understand that this is a HUUUGE stretch, but I figured I would give it a go.

Please advise me on your thoughts on this - and if it is possible, what exact steps should I take to properly request talkgroup information (DEC, HEX, mode, alpha tag, etc) and site frequencies? If possible, I would like to be as specific and exact as possible on my request

As much as this may seem strange, I am eager to find out how this process works - I have met people who have done it before and it went great for them.
 

natedawg1604

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Are you familiar with the radio reference database? I would imagine talkgroup info is exempt from public disclosure laws, however there is a vast amount of info already posted on the RR database. What exactly are you looking for that isn't already posted on the RR database?

 

dave3825

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is it possible to, from either a public records request or some sort of other formal procedure, gather talkgroups?
Anyone can request anything, Whether or not you receive a response is another story.
I am eager to find out how this process works - I have met people who have done it before and it went great for them.
Did you ask them about the process?

For a system that's not encrypted, and has all its info online, don't be surprised if they run a background check on you as I am sure they will deem your request very suspicious.


 

swfluncensored

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Are you familiar with the radio reference database? I would imagine talkgroup info is exempt from public disclosure laws, however there is a vast amount of info already posted on the RR database. What exactly are you looking for that isn't already posted on the RR database?


I am familiar with the RRDB, but there are several TAC channels (FD/EMS) that are not listed here that I would like to explore. Additionally, LCSO only has one talkgroup listed here and I would love to explore any other partially encrypted/unencrypted TGs
 

swfluncensored

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Anyone can request anything, Whether or not you receive a response is another story.

Did you ask them about the process?



Thanks for your reply. In response to the first comment, I was hoping I would receive a reply that wasn't a kind-hearted “f- off” but was also informational in regards to any TGs I could request.

Also, I did ask them about the process, in which case they told me public records requests were made with the municipality - but these were smaller townships
 

natedawg1604

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It would be much more productive and faster to get Unitrunker 2.0 and a few RTL SDR dongles, this allows you to log/monitor an entire site 24/7; this will show you every talkgroup that affiliates on the system and every voice grant, whether each voice grant is ENC etc.

I would second a prior comment that a public records request of this type would be viewed as pretty unusual, I would suggest it's a waste of time and will likely get you nothing useful at all. You would gain far more information from Unitunker.
 

dave3825

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Thanks for your reply. In response to the first comment, I was hoping I would receive a reply that wasn't a kind-hearted “f- off”
F-Off? From who? Them or me?

Agencies (especially in this day and age) most likely are not going to hand out tech info on public safety radio infrastructure. Many don't even like the fact that they can be monitored. Right now your Sheriffs one tg (not even a dispatch channel) is enc part time (De). I would bet money once a letter comes in asking for the info you seek, much of Lee will become DE. This is the world we live in now. Sad but true.

If you're looking for new stuff, and you have a scanner, do what the rest of us do. Buy @ProScan, then set up logging and recording.

DeSantis Loves The Mouse

.
 
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swfluncensored

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F-Off? From who? Them or me?

Agencies (especially in this day and age) most likely are not going to hand out tech info on public safety radio infrastructure. Many don't even like the fact that they can be monitored. Right now your Sheriffs one tg (not even a dispatch channel) is enc part time (De). I would bet money once a letter comes in asking for the info you seek, much of Lee will become DE. This is the world we live in now. Sad but true.

If you're looking for new stuff, and you have a scanner, do what the rest of us do. Buy @ProScan, then set up logging and recording.

DeSantis Loves The Mouse

.
F-off from them, haha. Sorry for the miscommunication
 

swfluncensored

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F-Off? From who? Them or me?

Agencies (especially in this day and age) most likely are not going to hand out tech info on public safety radio infrastructure. Many don't even like the fact that they can be monitored. Right now your Sheriffs one tg (not even a dispatch channel) is enc part time (De). I would bet money once a letter comes in asking for the info you seek, much of Lee will become DE. This is the world we live in now. Sad but true.

If you're looking for new stuff, and you have a scanner, do what the rest of us do. Buy @ProScan, then set up logging and recording.

DeSantis Loves The Mouse

.
Also, forgot to mention, but I do not own a scanner - I own an APX900.

Thank you all for your input, will definitely consider an SDR dongle!

Regards,
Brianna
 

dave3825

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F-Off? From who? Them or me?

Agencies (especially in this day and age) most likely are not going to hand out tech info on public safety radio infrastructure. Many don't even like the fact that they can be monitored. Right now your Sheriffs one tg (not even a dispatch channel) is enc part time (De). I would bet money once a letter comes in asking for the info you seek, much of Lee will become DE. This is the world we live in now. Sad but true.

If you're looking for new stuff, and you have a scanner, do what the rest of us do. Buy @ProScan, then set up logging and recording.

DeSantis Loves The Mouse

.

Thank you all for your input, will definitely consider an SDR dongle!

Regards,
Brianna
A dongle running SDRTrunk with another program called Trunking Recorder can record and store recordings and playback thru a web browser. It's great for trying to id new tg's on systems. I use it daily..
 

PVPD730

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Hi all,

Quick and simple - is it possible to, from either a public records request or some sort of other formal procedure, gather talkgroups?

I am local to Lee County, Florida. I have gathered that since radio talkgroups from public safety agencies are technically considered public information, is it possible to get a list of these talkgroups and site frequencies with a public records request, or some other form of request/formality? I understand that this is a HUUUGE stretch, but I figured I would give it a go.

Please advise me on your thoughts on this - and if it is possible, what exact steps should I take to properly request talkgroup information (DEC, HEX, mode, alpha tag, etc) and site frequencies? If possible, I would like to be as specific and exact as possible on my request

As much as this may seem strange, I am eager to find out how this process works - I have met people who have done it before and it went great for them.
There's been a couple of people in Kansas who have filed public records requests for talkgroups on two different systems (one being the KSICS statewide system). They were successful in getting the entire lists of talkgroups. Some states are very stubborn about releasing records. FL has the sunshine law which could put you in a somewhat favorable position. Never hurts to file the request. The worst that can happen is they give you a BS excuse or flat out tell you no.
 

batdude

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There was a fellow who was successful in his Orange County talkgroups request several years back so it can't hurt to try.

I believe all the TGs for the UCF system (University of Central Florida Trunking System, Orlando, Florida) were obtained via a FOIA.

my experience with FL (State of) was that they refused to hand over any technical information about SLERS - even when most of that data is already public record via the FCC. --- I requested an updated site list - they said "NOPE" and claimed several exemptions in the Florida statutes (security system, etc.) - on a county level, they probably wouldn't even know how to respond - but it never hurts to ask.

the easiest way to do this is to buy a scanner and run ID SEARCH on the system. The BEST way to do this is to run DSD+ via a SDR receiver (RTL-SDR or Airspy) ---- and it's fairly easy to find the "holes" in the TG lists ---- if Tac 1 is TG20001 and Tac 4 is TG20004, then it would kind of make sense that Tac 2 is TG20002 and Tac 3 is TG20003 ---- that kind of thing.... but that's not 100% guaranteed.

btw, I think the TG list in the Lee County system thread linked above - is fairly comprehensive. However, we have not processed any submissions for this system in a while.... so data updates to the RR dB are always appreciated.
 

batdude

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@briannaramos -- it would appear that the information you are looking for was already asked for --- and received:



 

APX8000

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First of all, you do not have to identify who you are to make a FOIA request.

Second, Florida has very broad open records laws. So broad, that deputies I've worked with actually have a disclosure in their signature line as Joe Citizen has been successful in FOIA requesting emails.

Third, no one is running a background on you for making a FOIA. As a matter of fact, that would be a violation of FCIC/NCIC policy as it doesn't serve a criminal justice purpose.

Lastly, it doesn't hurt to try. They may say that the records are exempt from public disclosure to make you actually file suit. But I don't believe system talkgroups fall into this category.
 
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Whiskey3JMC

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is it possible to get a list of these talkgroups and site frequencies with a public records request, or some other form of request/formality?
But doing the detective work yourself to find unknown TGIDs & their use is part of what makes the hobby fun & challenging IMHO. With that said; you don't need to file a request to determine site frequencies. Active frequencies should all be listed in the database. If you feel a site may be missing a frequency or two first check your programming. Otherwise every site frequency active or not is listed in the respective agency's FCC license(s). In your county's case: WROB719 (Site 1), WRJN740 (Site 2) & WRFF791 (Site 3). Remember just because a frequency appears in an FCC license doesn't guarantee said frequency is active & in use
 
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tampabaynews

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Lots of terrible information on public records, mostly from people who don't live here...

- You can "request" just about anything, thanks to the Sunshine Law.
- They are obligated to respond, either with a denial (and reason for it) or approval. There may or may not be a fee involved for the records custodian's time.
- There have been multiple public records requests in this state for talkgroup info, specifically Sarasota and Manatee. So there is a precedent there. I believe in another county there was a lawsuit filed after a denial and the county caved.
- It's illegal to run a background check on someone for a public records request, at least in Florida. You do not have to provide personally identifiable information to make a request, either.

Don't knock someone for looking for complete information. The RR database is crowdsourced and not 100% accurate, including frequencies, talkgroups, and usage. I think people are well-aware of ID search and CC decoding. Some people are missing the point. What the benefit is, is tying a talkgroup ID to a real alpha tag.

OP, send me a message if you need help with your records request.
 
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PrivatelyJeff

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Don't knock someone for looking for complete information. The RR database is crowdsourced and not 100% accurate, including frequencies, talkgroups, and usage. I think people are well-aware of ID search and CC decoding. Some people are missing the point. What the benefit is, is tying a talkgroup ID to a real alpha tag.

Also finding out about talkgroups that exist but may not be used frequently enough to be picked up like interoperability TGs and secondary (and so on) TGs for identified agencies.
 
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