GMRS vs. FRS

[blastco2]

So what would happen to gmrs repeaters under these proposed rules?

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[UPMan]

Nothing. They will continue to operate just fine, as they have since 1997 (when FRS was first put into the rules and the first models came out).

 

[KD8DVR]

On 22-channel radios, channels 1-7 and 15-22 all operate under GMRS rules (i.e. an explicit license is legally required). 8-14 operate under FRS rules.

Even though 1-7 can be either FRS or GMRS, since the radio transmits at a power level > 0.5W, it makes them GMRS.

We've petitioned the FCC to make some changes to the rules to make:

1) All channels operate under the same technical standards with maximum 2W ERP for all 22 and same bandwidth for all 22.
2) All channels license-by-rule (i.e. "if you follow the rules, you have a license", which is how FRS, CB, and MURS licensing works).
3) Redefine all 22 channels as FRS (with the above rules).

I've visited the FCC twice for this matter. Both times, they were very receptive. However, this rulemaking has been in process for most of this decade. They estimated some action this Summer (but today is the first day of Autumn, and I've still seen nothing).

Also, channels 1-7 are set to operate wideband, instead of narrow, which FRS requires.

BAD idea to de-license GMRS.

Better Idea:
The manufacturers need to start making 14 channel FRS only radios, and 15 channel GMRS radios with bold lettering on the package indicating the need for a license.

It is about taking legal responsibility.... not marketing a 22 channel "more is better" radio.

Of course, this will never happen.... Big Business cares about revenue... not what's right.

 

[KD8DVR]

So what would happen to gmrs repeaters under these proposed rules?

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They would be required to be deactivated, as the repeater inputs would be reallocated to other services.

 

[blastco2]

They would be required to be deactivated, as the repeater inputs would be reallocated to other services.

Well, that's a horrible idea....

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[KD8DVR]

Well, that's a horrible idea....

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Yep.... Definitely against the "Public Interest"; but definitely in the interest of Big Business

 

[n1das]

Also, channels 1-7 are set to operate wideband, instead of narrow, which FRS requires.

BAD idea to de-license GMRS.

Better Idea:
The manufacturers need to start making 14 channel FRS only radios, and 15 channel GMRS radios with bold lettering on the package indicating the need for a license.

It is about taking legal responsibility.... not marketing a 22 channel "more is better" radio.

Of course, this will never happen.... Big Business cares about revenue... not what's right.

With a few exceptions, the 22 channel bubble packs already operate in narrow bandwidth mode on all 22 channels. I recall the old Motorola TalkAbout T7200 had the option of setting wide or narrow bandwidth on the GMRS primary channels. The T7200 was also repeater capable.

I already operate in narrow mode on GMRS/FRS 1-7 and all GMRS primary channels. I'm using Part 90 commercial gear which also specifically has Part 95 type acceptance in addition to Part 90. All of my adjacent channel splatter from local bubble pack users 12.5 kHz away from whatever channel I'm using went away as soon as I made the switch from wide to narrow. A simple programming change was all that was required. My local GMRS repeater also operates in narrow mode to avoid adjacent channel splatter from FRS users on the upper FRS channels 12.5 kHz away from my repeater input. I am all for narrowbanding all of GMRS to go with the flow of Part 90. Older wide bandwidth equipment is getting harder to get and I want to keep up with the new stuff which is narrow only.

De-licensing GMRS is a bad idea but the bubble packs need to be accommodated somehow. I say allow GMRS to be license by rule the for the 22 channel bubble packs as they are today provided they meet all technical standards for a 22 channel bubble pack. The rules must not allow them to have any repeater capability. Simply keep them as they are today as essentially an extended version of FRS. This would be in line with Canada's de-licensing of GMRS and the same equipment would be usable in both countries and in fact they do have Industry Canada approval in addition to FCC Type Acceptance. This would not be hard to do. At the same time, keep GMRS licensed for high power and repeater use.

Bottom line is if you're using a 22-channel bubble pack, you would be eligible for license by rule like FRS. If you are using anything other than a type accepted 22-channel bubble pack you would need a GMRS license. Your typical bubble pack user is only a casual user of 2-way radio and won't have a clue about high powered operation and repeater use. They won't spend the money for good commercial gear or both to get licensed. Serious users OTOH are more likely to know what they're doing and know about radios and licensing and would be more likely to be licensed to protect their investment.

Another thought I had would be to upgrade FRS to reflect what the 22-channel bubble packs are today and simply keep GMRS the way it is as a licensed service.

GMRS needs to remain a licensed service but the bubble packs need to be accommodated somehow. I have a gut feeling things are going eventually go the de-licensing route and the GMRS will become license by rule and more or less mirror Canada's rules.

Just my $0.02 FWIW.


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[UPMan]

Our recommendation is not to "remove GMRS licensing." GMRS should continue to be an explicit licensed (i.e. you have to mail in an application with a payment) radio service. Our recommendation is to make all 22 channels that are currently in millions of radios part of the FRS and keep FRS as license-by-rule.

You cannot put the genie back into the bottle. Those millions of 22-channel radios are going to be around for decades. Our recommendation simplifies the rules, reduces consumer confusion, and codifies a defacto situation (most users treat all 22 channels as license-free.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

On 22-channel radios, channels 1-7 and 15-22 all operate under GMRS rules (i.e. an explicit license is legally required). 8-14 operate under FRS rules.

Even though 1-7 can be either FRS or GMRS, since the radio transmits at a power level > 0.5W, it makes them GMRS.

We've petitioned the FCC to make some changes to the rules to make:

1) All channels operate under the same technical standards with maximum 2W ERP for all 22 and same bandwidth for all 22.
2) All channels license-by-rule (i.e. "if you follow the rules, you have a license", which is how FRS, CB, and MURS licensing works).
3) Redefine all 22 channels as FRS (with the above rules).

I've visited the FCC twice for this matter. Both times, they were very receptive. However, this rulemaking has been in process for most of this decade. They estimated some action this Summer (but today is the first day of Autumn, and I've still seen nothing).

Well, I hope your proposal fails. I think it sucks.

I currently run 45 watt mobiles on GMRS. I might, at some future date, put up a GMRS repeater. I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars for frequency co-ordination to get a commercial pair, and Amateur is not legal for use at the ranch.

It's not my problem that Motorola, Midland, and Uniden decided to build an asinine product and flood the market with them, with complete disregard for educating the public about the product, so I think stripping me of the ability to use it as it was intended, in order to fix the screw-ups of a few large companies, is disgusting.


Delta

 

[N4GIX]

Well, I hope your proposal fails. I think it sucks.

Obviously you replied without reading the entire thread. Just above your reply, UPMan had clarified the statement you quoted, in which he wrote:

Our recommendation is not to "remove GMRS licensing." GMRS should continue to be an explicit licensed (i.e. you have to mail in an application with a payment) radio service. Our recommendation is to make all 22 channels that are currently in millions of radios part of the FRS and keep FRS as license-by-rule.

I'll admit that I was fixing to break out the pitchforks and whip the villagers into a frenzy myself, but finished reading the entire thread before setting fire to the thread... :lol:

 

[KD8DVR]

Well, I hope your proposal fails. I think it sucks.

I currently run 45 watt mobiles on GMRS. I might, at some future date, put up a GMRS repeater. I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars for frequency co-ordination to get a commercial pair, and Amateur is not legal for use at the ranch.

It's not my problem that Motorola, Midland, and Uniden decided to build an asinine product and flood the market with them, with complete disregard for educating the public about the product, so I think stripping me of the ability to use it as it was intended, in order to fix the screw-ups of a few large companies, is disgusting.


Delta

OR... was it their plan all along? Get the market flooded with products. Then get the public all operating without a license.

Then wait a few years...

Then, say "gee, with all these confused people, you may as well drop the licensing requirement"

The "Public Interest" the FCC likes to always talk about, in this case, SHOULD protect the licensees.

How it *usually* works out, is to support the *businesses*

Quick off topic deviation below, sorry :

If Uniden wants to do something fantastic, they should petition the FCC to allow FM on the USA CB band.... that way, they can really look at the public interest and give CB a better quality mode, with FM. Uniden sells FM CB radios overseas, so the technology is sound.

That way, they can make millions, and leave GMRS alone.

 

[KD8DVR]

Our recommendation is not to "remove GMRS licensing." GMRS should continue to be an explicit licensed (i.e. you have to mail in an application with a payment) radio service. Our recommendation is to make all 22 channels that are currently in millions of radios part of the FRS and keep FRS as license-by-rule.

You cannot put the genie back into the bottle. Those millions of 22-channel radios are going to be around for decades. Our recommendation simplifies the rules, reduces consumer confusion, and codifies a defacto situation (most users treat all 22 channels as license-free.

Hmmm...

OK... uh.... HOW can you make the 22 channel radios License Free....

BUT, still require a license?

The proposal to make the determination based on power output and antenna type is not good sense.

Who is to tell if a person on the air is transmitting over the unlicensed power rule.. or has an external antenna?

Yes, I know I sorta answered my own question.

To be honest.... Initially, I *supported* the FCC proposal. I even did an express comment, based on the atmosphere of the times. Since 2010, the GMRS community has evolved, due to social media and better communications. What was then. isn't now.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Obviously you replied without reading the entire thread. Just above your reply, UPMan had clarified the statement you quoted, in which he wrote:

I'll admit that I was fixing to break out the pitchforks and whip the villagers into a frenzy myself, but finished reading the entire thread before setting fire to the thread... :lol:

No, I read the entire thread. Every word.

I must admit that I'm a bit confused about him saying that he wants to keep GMRS licensing, but then says he wants it to be "license by rule".

He did say that his proposal included limiting ERP to 2 watts. We already have that on MURS. We need another identical 22 channels on UHF like we need a hole in the head.

Sadly, it was perfect before bubble-pack, combo radios hit the market. There was 1/2 watt, unlicensed "kiddie' radios, (FRS), and they were great for any kind of short-range communications, and then you had GMRS for those who needed more capability, and took the time to learn a bit more about radios.

Delta

 

[jonwienke]

Hmmm...

OK... uh.... HOW can you make the 22 channel radios License Free....

BUT, still require a license?

Because GMRS involves more channels than the 22 FRS and FRS/GMRS shared frequencies.

 

[KD8DVR]

Because GMRS involves more channels than the 22 FRS and FRS/GMRS shared frequencies.

You'll still have the unlicensed talking on the repeater outputs. Plus, you'll still have the manufacturers making repeater capable bubblepacks.

AntiSquid disclaimer: All information provided is personal opinion only and may or may not resemble actual fact.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Because GMRS involves more channels than the 22 FRS and FRS/GMRS shared frequencies.

I think you are a bit confused.

There are not 22 FRS and FRS/GMRS channels.

There are 7 FRS only channels.

There are 7 "interstitial" channels. They MAY be used under FRS rules, OR, they may be used under GMRS rules.

Then, there are 8 GMRS ONLY repeater pairs, 8 inputs, 8 outputs. They may be used ONLY under GMRS rules. High power, simplex or repeater operation.


Delta

 

[KD8DVR]

I think you are a bit confused.

There are not 22 FRS and FRS/GMRS channels.

There are 7 FRS only channels.

There are 7 "interstitial" channels. They MAY be used under FRS rules, OR, they may be used under GMRS rules.

Then, there are 8 GMRS ONLY repeater pairs, 8 inputs, 8 outputs. They may be used ONLY under GMRS rules. High power, simplex or repeater operation.


Delta

Yeah. Much better clarification than mine was

AntiSquid disclaimer: All information provided is personal opinion only and may or may not resemble actual fact.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

On 22-channel radios, channels 1-7 and 15-22 all operate under GMRS rules (i.e. an explicit license is legally required). 8-14 operate under FRS rules.

Even though 1-7 can be either FRS or GMRS, since the radio transmits at a power level > 0.5W, it makes them GMRS.

We've petitioned the FCC to make some changes to the rules to make:

1) All channels operate under the same technical standards with maximum 2W ERP for all 22 and same bandwidth for all 22.
2) All channels license-by-rule (i.e. "if you follow the rules, you have a license", which is how FRS, CB, and MURS licensing works).
3) Redefine all 22 channels as FRS (with the above rules).

I've visited the FCC twice for this matter. Both times, they were very receptive. However, this rulemaking has been in process for most of this decade. They estimated some action this Summer (but today is the first day of Autumn, and I've still seen nothing).

What you are doing is obsoleting GMRS which is a high power, high performance service. Why would you (a manufacturer) do this?

If you follow the present GMRS rules, obtain a license for the cost of $1 per month, you can operate up to 50 watts, enjoy a repeater, operate at full 20 KHz bandwidth (much better coverage) and what could possibly be wrong with letting GMRS exist as it has for many decades?

Why would anyone operating an FRS radio need more than 14 channels and a hundreds of privacy codes?

If you want to market GMRS radios, market radios with higher performance (including proper 20 KHz bandwidth and repeater mode) and demand a higher price point. This "creative marketing 22 channels and 36 miles" all arrives on the back of licensed GMRS operators.

If you must put 22 channels in these radios then make some provision that they are locked out unless a buyer presents a legitimate GMRS callsign to a website. Provide an activation code for the radio that is unique to it.

Don't go messing with GMRS rules to satisfy a corporate agenda.

 

[12dbsinad]

What you are doing is obsoleting GMRS which is a high power, high performance service. Why would you (a manufacturer) do this?

If you follow the present GMRS rules, obtain a license for the cost of $1 per month, you can operate up to 50 watts, enjoy a repeater, operate at full 20 KHz bandwidth (much better coverage) and what could possibly be wrong with letting GMRS exist as it has for many decades?

Why would anyone operating an FRS radio need more than 14 channels and a hundreds of privacy codes?

If you want to market GMRS radios, market radios with higher performance (including proper 20 KHz bandwidth and repeater mode) and demand a higher price point. This "creative marketing 22 channels and 36 miles" all arrives on the back of licensed GMRS operators.

If you must put 22 channels in these radios then make some provision that they are locked out unless a buyer presents a legitimate GMRS callsign to a website. Provide an activation code for the radio that is unique to it.

Don't go messing with GMRS rules to satisfy a corporate agenda.

2 watts ERP? Come on...

Why would you petition the FCC to further reduce higher power (available for all) spectrum?

Doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

2 watts ERP? Come on...

Why would you petition the FCC to further reduce higher power (available for all) spectrum?

Doesn't make sense to me either.

It is because the manufacturers of this bubble pack junk are all engaged in a 22 channel 36 mile marketing war and they want to legitimize stomping on GMRS channels at the peril of licensed GMRS operators.

There is no reason for users of bubble pack radios to need the additional GMRS channels. Further the push to license all by rule forces the FCC to rethink the power levels of mobiles and portables because they can't have innocent and ignorant little Bobbie and Buffie using a 5 watt radio in front of their little heads nor a 50 Watt mobile on Buffies little Pink Barbie Corvette.

This was all hashed out in an NPRM several years back and the FCC and others seeing actual licensed GMRS operators push back had them shelve the NPRM waiting for the smoke to clear. This issue is not dead.