• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

    If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.

    To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.

    The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.

    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

    This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.

GMRS wide band or narrow band

Status
Not open for further replies.

matt131

QRT
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
317
Hello,

Can anyone tell me under which band can I expect to get the best range from. Using for example 462.575 on 25.0khz or 12.5khz. Does using wide band or narrow band affect your radio range?

Thanks!!
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
All else being the same 25 KHz should give you 1.5 to 6 db improved signal to noise (range)
 

rescuecomm

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
1,445
Location
Travelers Rest, SC
All else being the same 25 KHz should give you 1.5 to 6 db improved signal to noise (range)

Am I the only one confused by this answer?

Cutting the modulation limiting diode in a CB (am) radio yields about the same sort of effect. The signal can be detected over high noise levels.

Bob
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
Cutting the modulation limiting diode in a CB (am) radio yields about the same sort of effect. The signal can be detected over high noise levels.

Bob

Yes, I guess it does if you don't consider the differences between AM and FM modulation. :wink:
 

Cowthief

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
102
Location
Texas
Hello.

Narrow banding is just that, putting a signal in a narrower "channel".
All things being equal, a 25kHz wide signal will have better coverage.
And, clipping the modulation limiting diode in a CB can easily cause over modulation, a louder signal but less range.
In AM the ideal is around 80 to 90% modulation.
Anything over and the signal splatters.
But if we reduce the carrier and part of one sideband we have a signal that has all the components of a regular AM signal but far greater range.
From a range standpoint, CW is king with SSB being next and VSRC being next in line and than a tossup between AM and FM.
The big advantage FM has is the reduction of static noise.
 

quarterwave

Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Messages
521
Location
TBD
Hello,

Can anyone tell me under which band can I expect to get the best range from. Using for example 462.575 on 25.0khz or 12.5khz. Does using wide band or narrow band affect your radio range?

Thanks!!

Keep it wide band. You are not required to be narrow at this point, and your "coverage" will be better for the reasons others have explained above.

I am working on a project for my company modifying licenses and upgrading mobiles and MTR2000 repeaters to narrow. We expect a little less coverage, but given that we have Aux receivers, an extremely awesome main TX/RX site and a license for 300 watts / 500 ERP on VHF....I am going to have a hard time being able to tell if there is any difference. Mostly because I have no baseline. They haven't used this system for much besides data for a few years, but now the data has gone Cellular, and we are going to use the system for secondary/emergency backup on voice again. Our license is for 75mi radius....I have been told on 100 watts this thing was heard 150 miles out. I don't think I will have any range issues.

Not that you needed to know all that....but just to say that in a large system it may make no noticeable range difference to the end users with good equipment. Now, on the other hand, I operate 2 low profile 50 watt GMRS repeaters, and I can see where narrow banding them would reduce my range, especially with portables. If GMRS ever has to narrow band, I am just going to get a commercial license for my needs, and put up a TRBO repeater at a better site.
 

N2MRG

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
35
When we typically say "wide" band, it means 25khz right?

While GMRS frequencies are 25khz apart, the NEAREST assigned frequencies to GMRS are 12.5khz apart?

So would that make GMRS narrowband already?

For example
FRS CH 1 462.5625
GMRS CH 2 462.575
FRS CH 2 462.5875
 
Last edited:

N4KVE

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
4,103
Location
PALM BEACH, FLORIDA
Here's the simple answer. Wideband is better. A wideband signal has up to 5 khz of deviation, while a narrowband signal can have no more than 2.5 khz deviation. GMRS is wideband, while FRS is narrowband. That's as simple as it gets.
 

N2MRG

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
35
ok that makes a bit more sense.

I noticed the PowerWerx GU-16 (part 95 radio) only allows programming Narrow band, which is why I was curious.
 

cdesigns

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
1
Location
Clermont, FL
Ok I just got back into GMRS, and Im learning about the narrowband and other rules, my question is I have several FRS/GMRS bubble pack but expensive radios and they are WIDEBAND , how the FCC is going to regulate all those millions of GMRS radios already sold with wideband?

Im setting up a portable repeater to wideband because my bubble pack gmrs radios that are repeater capable will not work on narrowband with my repeater.
 

W2NJS

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
1,938
Location
Washington DC
Ok I just got back into GMRS, and Im learning about the narrowband and other rules, my question is I have several FRS/GMRS bubble pack but expensive radios and they are WIDEBAND , how the FCC is going to regulate all those millions of GMRS radios already sold with wideband?

Im setting up a portable repeater to wideband because my bubble pack gmrs radios that are repeater capable will not work on narrowband with my repeater.

As Hooten just said, narrowbanding does not apply to GMRS. It also does not apply to hams, marine radio, NOAA weather broadcasts, the VHF paging channels, the UHF T-band, and MURS channels 4 and 5. Otherwise if you're a Part 90 licensee you must go to narrowband.
 
Last edited:

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
15,228
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
Where does the 1.5 to 6dB come from? If the receiver IF BW is reduced proportionally for narrow band you will improve the S/N by 3dB in narrow band mode and range will be improved in narrow band.

Any time you reduce receiver IF BW you get this improvement and going from say a typical 15KHz IF BW on FM to 1.5KHz (narrow SSB or wide CW) will give you a 10dB S/N improvement, not counting any change in mode. Going four times narrower to 375Hz BW for CW will give you a whopping 16dB S/N improvement over the original 15KHz starting point.
prcguy

All else being the same 25 KHz should give you 1.5 to 6 db improved signal to noise (range)
 

WA0CBW

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,633
Location
Shawnee Kansas (Kansas City)
It doesn't quite work that way. Your are mixing AM-FM-SSB-CW assuming they work the same. In an FM signal noise is noise is noise no matter what the IF bandwidth. As you narrow the signal the bandwidth decreases decreasing the signal to noise ratio reducing the received audio. Thus in FM reducing the bandwidth will reduce recovered audio in turn reducing the range from about 5 to 15% depending your conversion from db to percent. In our experience it seems to be about 10 to 20%.
BB
 

rkraft

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
3
Location
Molalla, OR
Wideband vs Narrowband

There are a couple of advantages to Narrowband over Wideband:

1) You can put double the amount of repeaters, or stations, in a band of frequencies that uses Narrowband.

Just as an example, say you can put 100 repeater pairs in the repeater portion of the 2-meter band, currently. If you switch to Narrowband, you can pretty much double that amount to 200.

2) You won't increase your "range", BUT you will "DECREASE" your receiver signal to noise ratio! In other words, you pick up less noise.

However, the advantages of Wideband are:

1) The audio quality is much better! But that's only if your radio has a HI FI type receiver! Most two-way radios have a very limited audio frequency range (300-5000 Hz), which isn't music quality, but ok for simple voice. So basically, wideband operations has no other advantage over narrowband.
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
13,416
Location
VA
Here's the simple answer. Wideband is better. A wideband signal has up to 5 khz of deviation, while a narrowband signal can have no more than 2.5 khz deviation. GMRS is wideband, while FRS is narrowband. That's as simple as it gets.

In an ideal world this is true. But in the real world, one must take into consideration that the FRS channels are sandwiched between the GMRS channels. If you run wideband on GMRS, FRS users on adjacent channels will fall partly within your channel width, and they will interfere with you, and you will interfere with them. If you run narrowband, the FRS and GMRS channels no longer overlap, and you will get a lot less adjacent channel interference and crosstalk.

In a rural area where you are the only game in town, there are some advantages to running wideband on GMRS. But if there is a lot of RF congestion on the FRS channels, you're better off going narrow to eliminate bleedover from the FRS channels.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top