Well, wouldn't you know, shortly after I wrote the above, I heard LLBL Security TG 120 on Presidio Tower. It appeared that they were encrypted (from the short burst I heard) and they didn't appear to be linked to Montara or Tam.
Golden Gate National Recreation
- Thread starter northzone
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They've showed up on Diablo quite a bit today and in the clear.
If you aren't hearing them on one of the new sites, and you think you should, it's possible they've been set to be denied at the site now.
I can't receive Diablo from here and Presidio is pretty weak. If they are authorized Montara and Tam, I would hear them for sure. Glad they are showing up somewhere and in the clear. Thanks Wayne for the observation.
Anyone with Pro96Com software can build a "DENIED" talkgroup list per site.
Maybe someone can check the site for you and post the DENIED list.
Maybe someone can check the site for you and post the DENIED list.
Retired911Guy
Member
They're on the Berkeley Lab Site where they should be.
I wondered how long it would take the Fed Radio Techs to figure out why the "new" GGNRA System wasn't working. Both Tam and Montara have ONLY 2 voice channels, and with Berkeley Lab Sec & Buses (both of which have the gift of gab) and Livermore Lab IT (TG 107) and Muir NHS (TG 108) and the new TG 175 that I reported a week or two ago (BTW I haven't heard ANY voice or ENC traffic TG 175, just PVTDATA since the traffic I reported), so anyway with those 5 if not more PLUS GGNRA competing for just 2 voice channels, not gonna work!
2 days ago every TG that was NOT GGNRA was removed from Tam and I think Montara (I don't pick Montara up very well, but when I listened I did hear some GGNRA, but No others), anyway now the GGNRA system works very well, well except for the encryption that is.
On Monday they started moving units over to ENC, by Monday 10-11pm most units were on ENC, however a few clear units came through, yesterday many had gone back to voice, I think NPS for now as policy is all on voice, about half the Park PD units are voice the others are ENC, don't know why.
I did hear 803 (Park PD Supervisor) the other night doing radio checks with a Tech, at each Location he would test voice then ENC, after about 30-40 minutes he called the Tech in voice and said that every time he used ENC the traffic was somewhat unclear, where as on voice it was very clear, the radio said I'm at dispatch, call me and I'll explain that.
I think what he explained was what I have read on a few websites re: P25, LSM and ENC signals, and that is that ENC on top of digital doesn't work very well, or so say the authors of the sites I was reading. So we may be able to listen to at least NPS and some Park PD units for a while, or the Techs may be working on something to try and clear up the ENC a little, don't know, we'll have to wait and see what happens.
BTW: I believe I have verified that what we think is Montara is Montara, I now hear NPS 400 units checking places far south of ocean beach, including Sweeney Ridge and Milagra Ridge which are both shown on the GGNRA map as the new areas obtained in North SM CO, those areas could only covered by Montara Mt.
Link to GGNRA Map with New Areas (anything south of Ft Funston)
http://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&PageID=122184
Dave
I wondered how long it would take the Fed Radio Techs to figure out why the "new" GGNRA System wasn't working. Both Tam and Montara have ONLY 2 voice channels, and with Berkeley Lab Sec & Buses (both of which have the gift of gab) and Livermore Lab IT (TG 107) and Muir NHS (TG 108) and the new TG 175 that I reported a week or two ago (BTW I haven't heard ANY voice or ENC traffic TG 175, just PVTDATA since the traffic I reported), so anyway with those 5 if not more PLUS GGNRA competing for just 2 voice channels, not gonna work!
2 days ago every TG that was NOT GGNRA was removed from Tam and I think Montara (I don't pick Montara up very well, but when I listened I did hear some GGNRA, but No others), anyway now the GGNRA system works very well, well except for the encryption that is.
On Monday they started moving units over to ENC, by Monday 10-11pm most units were on ENC, however a few clear units came through, yesterday many had gone back to voice, I think NPS for now as policy is all on voice, about half the Park PD units are voice the others are ENC, don't know why.
I did hear 803 (Park PD Supervisor) the other night doing radio checks with a Tech, at each Location he would test voice then ENC, after about 30-40 minutes he called the Tech in voice and said that every time he used ENC the traffic was somewhat unclear, where as on voice it was very clear, the radio said I'm at dispatch, call me and I'll explain that.
I think what he explained was what I have read on a few websites re: P25, LSM and ENC signals, and that is that ENC on top of digital doesn't work very well, or so say the authors of the sites I was reading. So we may be able to listen to at least NPS and some Park PD units for a while, or the Techs may be working on something to try and clear up the ENC a little, don't know, we'll have to wait and see what happens.
BTW: I believe I have verified that what we think is Montara is Montara, I now hear NPS 400 units checking places far south of ocean beach, including Sweeney Ridge and Milagra Ridge which are both shown on the GGNRA map as the new areas obtained in North SM CO, those areas could only covered by Montara Mt.
Link to GGNRA Map with New Areas (anything south of Ft Funston)
http://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&PageID=122184
Dave
That's actually the Berkeley techs. Each area has their own techs (Lab, Berk and GGNRA).
I like this logic as a scanner listener because it gives them reason to switch to the clear.
In the old days using analog encryption ("SecureNet") had huge differences compared to being in the clear. Now, since voice is digitized at the sending radio - and stays that way, it's all the same whether it's encrypted or not. The system delivers the packets to the radio which determines what to do with the voice part of the data. When the audio is recovered and no decryption happens you'll get that chirpy noise; same thing with a radio attempting to decrypt a transmission with the wrong key. Whether the system is LSM, C4FM, etc the modulation format will not affect encryption voice quality. If there is any degradation for some reason it is the fault of the subscriber radio.
Retired911Guy
Member
NPS North has staged a coup and taken over NPS South !!!
Civil war... the North took over the South (and kicked butt!)
I may have to eat my words later, however it appears that at the first of the new year NPS combined their North & South divisions and dumped their "400" radio call ID's and are now all "500" ID's.
AND they are Not staying North and South for patrol, but moving back and forth.
AND they have changed all their beat areas as far as old call ID's.
No more 402,404,412,418,419,461,462,462 Etc, all 500 units patrolling south since last 400 unit went OD a few hrs after midnight new years eve. (the prior Marin ID's are gone also)
Example, 518 patrolling the North SMCO Areas as Milagra Ridge and Mori Point and accidentally calling himself "412" then corectting himself to 518.
530 patrolling Ocean Beach, then making her way to Ft Point, then saying "heading to Muir Woods"
Day shift Supervisor 508 goes OD about 20:30 hrs, about 5 minutes later "402" says on duty, "correction 508" on duty, heading to Marin. (so 508 is just a radio call ID)
Have heard all new beat or call Id's
508 Supervisor
511 to 519 Rangers (heard 518 SMCO area, heard 519 @ Muir Woods)
529-533 Rangers (unk difference from 511-519 rangers) (Heard 530 & 532 Working North & South)
NOW REGARDING ENCRYPTION....
Everybody's all screwed up, on one shift all Park Pd will be ENC except a couple of holdouts are still CLEAR, on another shift almost all are CLEAR while a few holdouts are ENC. Sometimes the mobile is ENC and the handheld for that unit is CLEAR or Vice-versa.
Heard almost NO traffic from Park Pd today, but as soon as night shift came on (about 20:00 hrs) been hearing 6 or 7 800 units.
ALSO, far less talking from both PD and NPS, they always "used to" ID their locations I'm sure for patrol logging purposes. With the 100s and 100s of PVTDATA being sent from the mobile radios, I've ID tagged the radio ID's with PD and NPS and beats etc, I can tell that ALL the mobiles are sending in PVTDATA 100's of times and hour (not each, combined). They may be using some type of MDTs, maybe just punch a number on the screen that indicates you have patrolled a certain area, I don't know, just less voice and tons PVTDATA that comes from the mobiles, that's of the CLEAR units.
Dave
Civil war... the North took over the South (and kicked butt!)
I may have to eat my words later, however it appears that at the first of the new year NPS combined their North & South divisions and dumped their "400" radio call ID's and are now all "500" ID's.
AND they are Not staying North and South for patrol, but moving back and forth.
AND they have changed all their beat areas as far as old call ID's.
No more 402,404,412,418,419,461,462,462 Etc, all 500 units patrolling south since last 400 unit went OD a few hrs after midnight new years eve. (the prior Marin ID's are gone also)
Example, 518 patrolling the North SMCO Areas as Milagra Ridge and Mori Point and accidentally calling himself "412" then corectting himself to 518.
530 patrolling Ocean Beach, then making her way to Ft Point, then saying "heading to Muir Woods"
Day shift Supervisor 508 goes OD about 20:30 hrs, about 5 minutes later "402" says on duty, "correction 508" on duty, heading to Marin. (so 508 is just a radio call ID)
Have heard all new beat or call Id's
508 Supervisor
511 to 519 Rangers (heard 518 SMCO area, heard 519 @ Muir Woods)
529-533 Rangers (unk difference from 511-519 rangers) (Heard 530 & 532 Working North & South)
NOW REGARDING ENCRYPTION....
Everybody's all screwed up, on one shift all Park Pd will be ENC except a couple of holdouts are still CLEAR, on another shift almost all are CLEAR while a few holdouts are ENC. Sometimes the mobile is ENC and the handheld for that unit is CLEAR or Vice-versa.
Heard almost NO traffic from Park Pd today, but as soon as night shift came on (about 20:00 hrs) been hearing 6 or 7 800 units.
ALSO, far less talking from both PD and NPS, they always "used to" ID their locations I'm sure for patrol logging purposes. With the 100s and 100s of PVTDATA being sent from the mobile radios, I've ID tagged the radio ID's with PD and NPS and beats etc, I can tell that ALL the mobiles are sending in PVTDATA 100's of times and hour (not each, combined). They may be using some type of MDTs, maybe just punch a number on the screen that indicates you have patrolled a certain area, I don't know, just less voice and tons PVTDATA that comes from the mobiles, that's of the CLEAR units.
Dave
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Hooligan
Member
Could the PVTDATA be GPS-based Automatic Vehicle Locator beacons?
Retired911Guy
Member
Could be, I didn't mention that also when a unit goes out at a location (ie: gets out of the veh) there will 3 to 6 to 9 PVTDATA's from that units radio. Maybe veh radio sending veh data - ignition off, handhelds on, + GPS? Then when back in veh 3-6-9 more PVTDATA's, then later while NO radio traffic, more PVTDATA's from same radio ID, same with all veh's.
And NPS seems to back to stating locations they are checking, maybe the first couple days they were still in shock and trying to absorb the changes and remember their new beat numbers.
Update on NPS numbering:
After a couple of more days of listening there is NOT a gap b/t 511-519 and the 529-533 groups. Have now heard 521,523 & 527, although 527 was ENC, a CLEAR unit was talking to him/her about the horses, so the 527 area units may be the NPS Mounted Div. Just heard NPS 550 go OD, 55x units in the old system were Muir Woods units.
Hearing a lot of radio tech traffic (TG 538) can't really tell what they are talking about, one did say he measured 1/3 of an amp, don't where or what he was working on. Remember all the other GGNRA non LE units have to changed over and Black Mt still needs to show up.
Encryption:
Still varies shift to shift, some CLEAR, some ENC. I think most PPD and NPS either don't care or don't know whether or not they are ENC or CLEAR.
I have seen both PPD & NPS radio ID's that were previously tagged by me as either CLEAR or ENC have changed one way or the other. So there seems be be at least one PPD & NPS person that changes to ENC or CLEAR in the veh they start their shift in.
Sorry if rambling, just reporting ...
Dave
Retired911Guy
Member
Exciting few minutes, 2 men with riffles in the Mussel Beach area on the ridge shooting at things, near hiking trails etc.
506, 511, 512, 525, 812 all code 3 (all CLEAR) (and lots of ENC units I'm Sure), two in custody, but the ridge area is Daly City area. Our NPS heroes 512 made arrest and is holding for Daly City PD.
DC PD, Pacifica PD NPS & Park PD All there, Comand post was set up, over now.
Posting here because it's over AND NEW GGNRA TG 503 is LE Tac 1 (Repeated)
Radio Techs TG 538 lots of radio checks Thurs & Friday, Tagged Radio IDs as Techs Testing, later 2 of them came up as NPS units, New Radio Call Id's and areas.
EDIT: BTW the good thing is Radio Techs testing in the CLEAR and handing over radios to new users in the CLEAR, so unless the PPD or NPS units changes to ENC, it stays CLEAR.
550 - Alcatraz Ranger (Don't know if LE, but operates on LE-1)
551 - Pier 33 (Alcatraz Ferry Terminal) Ranger (Don't know if LE, but operates on LE-1)
Dave
506, 511, 512, 525, 812 all code 3 (all CLEAR) (and lots of ENC units I'm Sure), two in custody, but the ridge area is Daly City area. Our NPS heroes 512 made arrest and is holding for Daly City PD.
DC PD, Pacifica PD NPS & Park PD All there, Comand post was set up, over now.
Posting here because it's over AND NEW GGNRA TG 503 is LE Tac 1 (Repeated)
Radio Techs TG 538 lots of radio checks Thurs & Friday, Tagged Radio IDs as Techs Testing, later 2 of them came up as NPS units, New Radio Call Id's and areas.
EDIT: BTW the good thing is Radio Techs testing in the CLEAR and handing over radios to new users in the CLEAR, so unless the PPD or NPS units changes to ENC, it stays CLEAR.
550 - Alcatraz Ranger (Don't know if LE, but operates on LE-1)
551 - Pier 33 (Alcatraz Ferry Terminal) Ranger (Don't know if LE, but operates on LE-1)
Dave
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Retired911Guy
Member
TG 538 now ID'd as Alcatraz TG
Radio techs maybe just using it for awhile to make sure it worked OK.
Verified as Alcatraz by Park PD calling a unit "on the Alcatraz Channel", then 3-4 other units including 550,551, 328 plus (maybe Volunteers) ID'ing by name all on TG 538, all on Alcatraz. (All CLEAR, including Park PD Disp)
So previous post with 550 & 551 on TG 501 was apparently due to TG 538 NOT being in service yet.
Also if you missed it, TG 503 GGNRA LE Tac 1 and TG 506 U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (3301 & 3304 heard)
Submitted
Dave
523 is the radio tech TG.
Retired911Guy
Member
I Knew that (posted it myself on 11-11), I was just making you were paying attention
Sorry, my brain so elsewhere right now (actually was been for a few years, but more so now), went under the knife last week and they found more than they expected, waiting to hear the official word from pathology.
Dave
Hah, it could have been another temp testing channel. I was confirming it; it's the actual GGNRA radio tech channel.I Knew that (posted it myself on 11-11), I was just making you were paying attention
"NEW TG 175 on LAB System heard from TAM doing radio checks sounded like can or cand, but here's what I heard (apply can or cand or if some knows who please ID them for us)"
I heard similar traffic on TG 175 last night (Friday) around 8:00 p.m. Can 4 calling Can 7 for a radio check. She answered and that was the end of it. Heard this on Tam.
I heard similar traffic on TG 175 last night (Friday) around 8:00 p.m. Can 4 calling Can 7 for a radio check. She answered and that was the end of it. Heard this on Tam.
jlanfn
California Database Admin
I heard the same thing tonight at 8:00 p.m. Testing with Can Lead, Can 1,..., Can 10. At the end of the testing someone said "joint (something) task force".
I also got various hits throughout the past couple of days on TG 505. The unit was testing and said this was the first time he'd gotten the opportunity to play with the new radio.
Dispatch side of TG 501 has been encrypted while many, but not all, field units have been in the clear.
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I've noticed a few new users popping up. Without hearing anything I can tell by the radio ID's. TG 175 is an example. Wherever they're at they don't show up on Diablo often whereas LBNL folks do.
There's also TG 124.
In the 5xx range, besides GGNRA and USF&WS, there's another agency (probably DOI related) on TG 518. I've seen them on TG 536 also.
Looking at the ID's (excluding the Lab stuff) quickly it looks like the following:
7050xx, 7051xx, 7052xx is LBNL
7053xx is TG 175
7058xx is TG 123,124
7250xx, 7051xx, 726xyy is GGNRA PubSafety
7252xx is USF&WS
7255xx is GGNRA on TG 535 & 536
7257xx, 7258xx, 7262xx is GGNRA Maint or Admin (Maybe grouped as HT, Mobile, Base)
7259xx is DOI Radio Service
The agencies that have multiples ranges have ranges set aside for mobile, portable, etc.
As a reminder of DOI "Bureaus & Offices":
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Bureau of Land Management
Bureau of Ocean Energy Management
Bureau of Reclamation (commonly on VHF outside the Bay Area)
Bureau of Safety and Environmental Enforcement
National Park Service
Office of Surface Mining, Reclamation and Enforcement
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
U.S. Geological Survey (currently on VHF)
There's also TG 124.
In the 5xx range, besides GGNRA and USF&WS, there's another agency (probably DOI related) on TG 518. I've seen them on TG 536 also.
Looking at the ID's (excluding the Lab stuff) quickly it looks like the following:
7050xx, 7051xx, 7052xx is LBNL
7053xx is TG 175
7058xx is TG 123,124
7250xx, 7051xx, 726xyy is GGNRA PubSafety
7252xx is USF&WS
7255xx is GGNRA on TG 535 & 536
7257xx, 7258xx, 7262xx is GGNRA Maint or Admin (Maybe grouped as HT, Mobile, Base)
7259xx is DOI Radio Service
The agencies that have multiples ranges have ranges set aside for mobile, portable, etc.
As a reminder of DOI "Bureaus & Offices":
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Bureau of Land Management
Bureau of Ocean Energy Management
Bureau of Reclamation (commonly on VHF outside the Bay Area)
Bureau of Safety and Environmental Enforcement
National Park Service
Office of Surface Mining, Reclamation and Enforcement
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
U.S. Geological Survey (currently on VHF)
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jlanfn
California Database Admin
Are GGNRAs consoles true consoles or just base radios? I'm accustomed to seeing up to several hundred radio IDs per console, one ID for each talkgroup the console can access. The GGNRA consoles (RID 103 and 104 seem to be the most used) keep the same radio ID for every talkgroup they use. I would think that would impact their ability to patch, multiselect, or do anything with multiple talkgroups simultaneously.
On a side note and many of you probably already know this--I'm sure the reason many of the radios are in the 700000 range is that they kept their radio ID from the old system. Motorola trunked system radio IDs all start with "7" even though scanners and decoding software often omit this. On a Motorola Type II system, a radio ID of "123" is really "700123." This was also the case on a new P25 system in Southern California.
On a side note and many of you probably already know this--I'm sure the reason many of the radios are in the 700000 range is that they kept their radio ID from the old system. Motorola trunked system radio IDs all start with "7" even though scanners and decoding software often omit this. On a Motorola Type II system, a radio ID of "123" is really "700123." This was also the case on a new P25 system in Southern California.
jlanfn
California Database Admin
I'm new to scanning GGNRA. Can someone tell me who the 800 series callsigns are? Also, several people on this thread have distinguished between NPS rangers and Park PD. What is the difference; who handles what?
The 800 units are US Park Police. Both the NPS Rangers and the US Park Police are responsible for law enforcement in the GGNRA, but they handle different geographic areas. The USPP seems to be primarily responsible for the Presidio, while the NPS Rangers patrol Ocean Beach and the Marin Headlands.
Nationwide, the US Park Police has a limited area of responsibility which includes the Gateway National Recreation Area (New York City), the Golden Gate National Recreation Area (San Francisco), as well as designated sites in the Washington DC area. The USPP has jurisdiction in all lands administered by the National Park Service, but only maintains a presence in the major metropolitan areas.
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