Gwinnett County Fire

[MTS2000des]

The decision to encrypt radio channels was made to ensure the safety of first responders as they operate at dangerous or complex emergency scenes.

So, here is what I just sent the PIO:

Captain Rutledge,

With the decision to encrypt all dispatch and operating (tactical) talkgroups with proprietary ADP encryption, does this not compromise firefighter/responder safety on mutual aid incidents? The United States Department of Homeland Security has released a guideline in late 2013 that strongly recommends only the use of industry standard AES-256 hardware based encryption.

http://www.azpsic.gov/library/links/Guidelines_for_Encryption_in_LMR_Systems.pdf

First, this ensures interoperability with all P25 land mobile subscriber equipment, which allows for agencies including other local, state and Federal users who use different manufacturers of subscriber radio to operate on secure channels/talkgroups.

Second, AES-256 is robust, secure FIPS compliant encryption. The ADP (advanced digital privacy) sold by Motorola Solutions currently used by GCFD is a horribly weak 40 bit cypher which has already been compromised by amateur cryptologists with minimal hardware and software. It is essentially "security through obscurity". Furthermore, the key fill is done by the radio's customer programming software and is easily extractable by trained persons. It is hardly secure and is outright dangerous to rely on it for the purpose of transmitting anything of a sensitive nature.

Third, the decision to encrypt ALL fire communications including dispatch operations gives the appearance that the Gwinnett county fire services does not want the watchful eye of citizens or the media observing the operations. In this modern day and age of social media and a connected society, citizens rely on quick and unfettered access to incidents as they occur.

While some may argue that keeping dispatches in the clear mode allow the "bad guys" to get a head start, the facts and figures do not support the model that unencrypted radio communications hinders responder safety. In many cases, having citizens more aware of incidents allows them to be an asset, an additional set of eyes and ears aiding law enforcement catching suspects, and the media uses this information to get road closures out and also keeps them from calling your communications centers hindering your calltakers and dispatchers' work with questions about ongoing incidents.

The use of encryption in the fire service has proven to be more of a liability during large scale incidents, such as the recent incident in Washington, DC. The DC tunnel incident highlighted exactly how encrypted fire communications impacted a speedy and coordinated response to a mass incident. One of the largest factors that is coming to light was the tremendous delay in personnel reaching the scene, and their inability to communicate while on the scene as a direct result of issues with encryption on the DC FD radio network. As a result of the delays in response, many more were injured, and a civilian casualty resulted.

The recent decision on the part of the DC fire department management was to utilize encryption on all dispatch and operational talkgroups. In the post incident response, the department administration has ceased encryption DCFD communications, as they have learned a valuable lesson on how encryption directly hinders interagency interoperability and increases response time.

I STRONGLY suggest that your command staff review the decision to encrypt all Gwinnett county fire and emergency service radio traffic that utilizes ADP, and should instead consider using industry standard AES-256 encryption. Encryption should ONLY be used for sensitive tactical operations such as SWAT assists, arson investigations, or other security sensitive operations. Routine dispatch and fireground operations should be in the clear mode in the interest of mutual aid response and citizen oversight and accountability.

I encourage you to review the attached link on DHS recommendations on P25 land mobile radio security standards, and also the post incident reports on the DC smoke in tunnel incident, and revise your department's decision to encrypt accordingly.

Respectfully submitted,

Erik M. Bagby
COM-L,
General Class Amateur Radio operator N4XTS

 

[rapidcharger]

Looks like Tommy is going to have a busy day answering questions.

 

[wise871]

Now the PIO has to think about it and actually come up with a reply. He can't use the standard cut and paste on this one. Nicely written letter. I wish you the best of luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MTS2000des]

No reply as of yet, remember he says:

The PIO can be reached 24/7 by email at fdpio@gwinnettcounty.com.

Granted I sent it at 0115, but as I said in my inquiry, citizens expect unfettered and real time access to information. We aren't living in the dark ages.

I will post whatever reply I get from Captain Rutledge, if any.

 

[rapidcharger]

No reply as of yet, remember he says:

The PIO can be reached 24/7 by email at fdpio@gwinnettcounty.com.

Granted I sent it at 0115, but as I said in my inquiry, citizens expect unfettered and real time access to information. We aren't living in the dark ages.

I will post whatever reply I get from Captain Rutledge, if any.

Did you send it to that address or to him directly?
I am aware of another email with additional questions but it was in response to the original message and not sent to that fdpio address.

 

[tampabaynews]

Here are the issues I have with suggesting people contact the PIO...

From my experience, metro area PIO's don't want to deal with anyone other than the mainstream media. Then again, it would be hilarious if random citizens called and emailed them at 1am saying they saw a battalion chief running hot and want to know where they're going.

I've called major city PIO's on incidents hours after they've occurred and they had no idea it happened. The media is often better about notifying PIO's than their own communications center and command staff.

The biggest problem, the agency now decides what's newsworthy. Before, a television station might ask about an apparatus involved accident they heard on the scanner. But now, such incidents might go under the radar if it benefits the agency. The information they do release, would be heavily filtered.

Citizens should be highly suspicious of any local public safety agency utilizing total encryption.

 

[kayn1n32008]

No reply as of yet, remember he says:

The PIO can be reached 24/7 by email at fdpio@gwinnettcounty.com.

Granted I sent it at 0115, but as I said in my inquiry, citizens expect unfettered and real time access to information. We aren't living in the dark ages.

I will post whatever reply I get from Captain Rutledge, if any.

A response probably requires input from folks far above his pay grade.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[DanRollman]

Nice find.

Yes - very nice find. Most interesting thing I saw (or didn't, as the case may be): No entry for GSP. I had thought GSP in Gwinnett County was using the county's DTRS, the way they do up in Hall. Now I'm stumped again.

Dan

 

[rapidcharger]

Yes - very nice find. Most interesting thing I saw (or didn't, as the case may be): No entry for GSP. I had thought GSP in Gwinnett County was using the county's DTRS, the way they do up in Hall. Now I'm stumped again.

Dan

Do they have their own TG in hall? They probably hop on whatever talkgroup for the zone/precinct they're working in is.

 

[N8IAA]

Do they have their own TG in hall? They probably hop on whatever talkgroup for the zone/precinct they're working in is.

If they did, it would be ENC. They all carry 800MHz portables to access the systems in Forsyth, Hall, and Gwinnett. This info came to me from a GSP trooper. They mainly are on the state bands until their move to P-25 repeaters are solid.
I have heard the GSP and DNR on Hall's Event TG's during bad weather and when they are doing check points. That's how they interop.
Larry

 

[N8IAA]

Yes - very nice find. Most interesting thing I saw (or didn't, as the case may be): No entry for GSP. I had thought GSP in Gwinnett County was using the county's DTRS, the way they do up in Hall. Now I'm stumped again.

Dan

Dan, as posted on another group, NIFOG and GLEMN are being used.
Larry

 

[MTS2000des]

Did you send it to that address or to him directly?

I sent the response to the email address provided in your post. If you have another email address, please forward it to me and I will cc the email I sent to the one posted.

From my experience, metro area PIO's don't want to deal with anyone other than the mainstream media.

Captain Rutledge clearly stated in his response that the general public as well as media are encouraged to utilize him as a point of contact. From the email in the post:

In order to continue providing up-to-date information, the department’s public information officer (PIO) will be available to both the news media and general public. The PIO can be reached 24/7 by email at fdpio@gwinnettcounty.com.

So I did just that, as a member of the general public, I sent my concerns to him. While the response may indeed be above his pay grade, it would professional and in the interest of the public to at least acknowledge the communication he received.
​

 

[rapidcharger]

If they did, it would be ENC. They all carry 800MHz portables to access the systems in Forsyth, Hall, and Gwinnett. This info came to me from a GSP trooper. They mainly are on the state bands until their move to P-25 repeaters are solid.
I have heard the GSP and DNR on Hall's Event TG's during bad weather and when they are doing check points. That's how they interop.
Larry

That was my understanding. They don't have their own talkgroups, they join existing TGs.

I sent the response to the email address provided in your post. If you have another email address, please forward it to me and I will cc the email I sent to the one posted.



Captain Rutledge clearly stated in his response that the general public as well as media are encouraged to utilize him as a point of contact. From the email in the post:

In order to continue providing up-to-date information, the department’s public information officer (PIO) will be available to both the news media and general public. The PIO can be reached 24/7 by email at fdpio@gwinnettcounty.com.

So I did just that, as a member of the general public, I sent my concerns to him. While the response may indeed be above his pay grade, it would professional and in the interest of the public to at least acknowledge the communication he received.
​

That wasn't his direct email address. That was the "general mailbox" if you will, for the complaint desk. His email address, which was redacted from my earlier post due to homeland security, officer safety, and patient confidentiality, is Tommy.Rutledge@gwinnettcounty.com.
I do apologize, however you never know nowadays with terrorists and whatnot. :wink:

 

[MTS2000des]

I have forwarded my previous email to that address. I will update the thread accordingly when and if I receive a reply. I would think a fire chief would at least be professional enough to acknowledge communications.

 

[rapidcharger]

I have forwarded my previous email to that address. I will update the thread accordingly when and if I receive a reply. I would think a fire chief would at least be professional enough to acknowledge communications.

That's what the return receipt and reading confirmation functions are for in your email client.

 

[DanRollman]

Dan, as posted on another group, NIFOG and GLEMN are being used.
Larry

NIFOG and GLEMN? I thought GLEMN was just a fancy name for the DVRS in use by GSP cars through the FutureCom? Which still relies on the mobile radio having a specific frequency or talkgroup on which to operate for wider area communications to dispatch.

What frequencies/system specifically, are you actually hearing GSP Post 51 units communicating with their dispatcher on, on a daily routine basis? I've tried all the usual suspects, including all the frequencies on the GSP page here on RR and the GLEMN frequencies. I've literally watched GSP Post 51 units talk into their radios on I-85 and heard nothing on the scanner.

And I've seen various people make all sorts of vague references on lots of different forums as to what Post 51 may be using for their regular radio communications. But so far, no one (that I have seen) has clearly, specifically said what frequencies or system Post 51 is using that I can verify with my own ears (scanner). Which, of course, is why the RR database is "blank" for Post 51.

Dan

 

[MTS2000des]

That's what the return receipt and reading confirmation functions are for in your email client.

Those aren't necessarily meaningful. My mail client blocks those automatically, like Gwinnett county government, I value my privacy and security.

Speaking of, it is coming up on 24 hours since I sent the email above to fdpio@gwinnettcounty.com and haven't even so much as gotten an auto-reply.

Maybe I need to check my email client to ensure encryption is turned OFF. :roll:

 

[rapidcharger]

Here was some Q&A exchanged by email with Mr. Rutlege.

Questions in blue/italic
Answers in red/bold
Translation in vomit colored/underlined

================================================

1.) Fighting fires is not an occupation without considerable risk to the safety of responders. Please explain in greater detail how having dispatch in the clear is a risk to the safety of first responders. Seeing as how first responders will march into a burning building, it seems to me that the interception of fire dispatch by the general public is comparatively low risk. Can you provide any specific examples of how having dispatch in the clear in the past has resulted in injury or death to a first responder? If no injury or death resulted, were there any specific situations in which first responders were unable to do their jobs as a result of having dispatch in the clear?

The department takes seriously the safety of all personnel, including our counterparts in law enforcement and the public. In addition to practicing situational awareness and providing our personnel with the latest in apparatus technology and equipment, the department made an operational decision to begin using encrypted radio channels effective March 31, 2015. The implementation of radio encryption was done as part of a continued effort to evaluate the emergency response environment and take the necessary steps to ensure that safety remains paramount. The next logical step in our quest to enhance safety was to move forward with radio encryption.

The examples of how clear dispatch posed a risk to responders and reasons why responders were unable to do their jobs were not provided. He said it was a logical step but provided no logical explanation.

2.) Gwinnett County is one of very few fire departments in the whole country, or even the entire world, to use encryption on dispatch. Large agencies such as NYC, LA, Miami and Boston are not encrypted. Putting the safety of the responders, from a miniscule risk by something as simple as clear dispatch, over the safety of the general public doesn't seem like a compatible line of thought for people who are in the selfless profession of protecting others. Not having dispatch in the clear means a lot of people will not be aware of any hazards and therefore will not know to avoid certain areas where there is a dangerous or complex emergency scene. Therefore, first responders are at potentially greater risk because people don't have any idea as to what is going on. In addition, encryption makes interoperability with neighboring fire agencies difficult. Doesn't that put other first responders and other members of the public at greater risk?

Department leaders consulted with our mobile communications equipment provider and employed the appropriate product to provide encrypted radio talkgroups. To address the concern of interoperability during times of mutual aid, each radio in the system was programmed with the state mutual aid talkgroups for use when communicating with outside agencies. In addition to the state mutual aid channels, the radios were also equipped with the talkgroups for jurisdictions that border Gwinnett County. Our dispatch center has the capability to patch any radio frequency to our system for continued-open communications between public safety personnel.

He didn't reveal what reasons the vendor gave for doing it. He didn't have any comment on why Gwinnett had to be one of few fire departments on Planet Earth to encrypt dispatch.

3.) You mentioned the department's award winning programs and initiatives as well as voluntary participation from citizens. You managed to garner such awards and participation without the use of encrypted dispatch. Why does the department believe that encryption will keep the awards flowing? When younger generations of prospective future first responders can't even listen to their local fire dispatch on a scanner, what reason do you have to believe such participation will grow or at least stay at the same level?

The department is committed to providing opportunities for citizens to get involved and learn about the outstanding fire protection and emergency medical services provided by its members. The Citizen Fire Academy Program (CFA) is geared toward adults over age-18, who have a desire to experience firsthand the events and activities of the department. Many continue their involvement by joining the Citizen Fire Academy Alumni Association and assist the department with annual public fire and life safety education campaigns and smoke alarm blitzes. The department also offers a weekly program for teens called the Gwinnett Fire Explorer Youth Cadet Program. Exploring is a co-ed program, sponsored by Boy Scouts of America and is chartered to the fire department. The program provides a positive vehicle for young adults to learn about a career in the fire and emergency medical services profession.

And participation will stay at the same rate because.... This question went unanswered.

4.) Gwinnett County appears to have a problem with keeping the public informed when it comes to things that they should be aware of. Sometimes local media outlets would get wind of something (usually by using scanners), and members of the public who happen to be watching TV or reading the newspaper would eventually find out about something. But considering the size of the county, Gwinnett seems to be more interested in secrecy than public outreach and alerting and advising the public about things that not only might harm them, but things that might be useful to first responders such as tips or having people stay away from a particular area. With all of the technological advancements such as social media, and other ways that agencies in other metro Atlanta communities reach out to the public for things such as missing children and alerts to stay out of a certain area or other important information, residents of Gwinnett are now 100%, completely in the dark. Our media is in the dark and we can't even use a police scanner. Since Gwinnett has nearly 6,000 encryption-cable radios and has someone on staff 24/7 to field endless emails, the county clearly has the resources to keep the public informed. So why does the department value secrecy over keeping the public informed? How does the department feel about the perception from many in the public, that it is being kept in the dark by a secret police force and now a secret fire department?

The department strives at all times to be a proactive and transparent, fire, emergency medical and community risk reduction provider. We are one of only a few fire service organizations to maintain a full-time public information officer (PIO) who is responsive to the media and members of the public on a 24/7 basis. The PIO will continue to provide notification to the news media and the public through the dissemination of news alerts, press releases, and media advisories.

How is one supposed to get these news alerts? They do not use social media. They do not post alerts to their website or use alerting apps such as Nixle. I guess extrasensory perception is required.

=================================

Dancing around questions is what PIOs are trained to do.
To say that the public and the media should trust that information will be adequately disseminated by a PIO is like replacing your kids dead goldfish while they're at school. Nobody but them will ever know the full extent of what is going on.

 

[MTS2000des]

Captain Rutledge sent me essentially the same reply. He totally avoided the valid discussion of how the department's choice of encryption is not only a poor choice as it does not conform to Federal interoperability standards, but their choice to encrypt ALL traffic places the department and public at greater risk of a delay in a coordinated response as occurred this year in the DC smoke in the metro tunnel MCI which resulted in the death of one civilian and dozens of injuries.

He cites his agencies' consulting their radio vendor as the one who essentially "hooked them up" with encryption, trying to defer the responsibility of their choice to use the venerable and non-standard Motorola ADP over the more robust and Federally standardized hardware based AES-256.

That may be a nice PIO style whitewash, but it doesn't jive.
This further proves my point about the lack of competent decision making in Gwinnett County government. The trite and worn excuse of "responder safety" simply does not hold water when the facts are laid out.

I hope that no one, responder or civilian, is harmed because of this poor decision, but if that occurs, you can refer to this very thread and see they were presented with factual evidence as to why their decision to encrypt is a poor one, and they chose to ignore such facts.

I am glad I don't live there. And never will.

Mr. Bagby,

Thank you for contacting the Gwinnett County Department of Fire and Emergency Services. We received your inquiry concerning radio encryption and would like to offer the following as a reply.

The department takes seriously the safety of all personnel, including our counterparts in law enforcement and the public.
In addition to practicing situational awareness and providing our personnel with the latest in apparatus technology and equipment, the department made an operational decision to begin using encrypted radio channels effective March 31, 2015. The implementation of radio encryption was done as part of a continued effort to evaluate the emergency response environment and take the necessary steps to ensure that safety remains paramount. The next logical step in our quest to enhance safety was to move forward with radio encryption.

Department leaders consulted with our mobile communications equipment provider and employed the appropriate product to provide encrypted radio talkgroups. To address the concern of interoperability during times of mutual aid, each radio in the system was programmed with the state mutual aid talkgroups for use when communicating with outside agencies. In addition to the state mutual aid channels, the radios were also equipped with the talkgroups for jurisdictions that border Gwinnett County. Our dispatch center has the capability to patch any radio frequency to our system for continued-open communications between public safety personnel.

The department strives at all times to be a proactive and transparent, fire, emergency medical and community risk reduction provider. We are one of only a few fire service organizations to maintain a full-time public information officer (PIO) who is responsive to the media and members of the public on a 24/7 basis. The PIO will continue to provide notification to the news media and the public through the dissemination of news alerts, press releases, and media advisories.

I hope this response answers your concerns and further clarifies the department’s position regarding radio encryption. I appreciate your time and the interest that you have in the department’s activities. The men and women of the department are dedicated professionals who serve the community with honor, integrity and pride. I also see by your e-mail signature, that you are an avid amateur radio operator. I appreciate the service that you provide to the community and certainly share your passion for radio communications.


Please feel free to contact me if you need further assistance.

Respectfully,

Captain Tommy Rutledge, PIO

 

[rapidcharger]

I did a test of the so-called 24/7 PIO email today and so far it has been over 6 hours and I haven't received a response to my inquiry.

What good is having a 24/7 PIO if they're going to take such a long time to respond? What a complete loss of confidence in that agency.