H.R.1280 (AKA Police Reform) - A Great Opportunity to Get Encryption Banned

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FPR1981

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We had quite an active scanner land here where I live. So many old folks used the police scanner as their entertainment. My 80-year-old Aunt Dorothy was like a radar with that thing. Every time my drunkard cousin Mark got picked up for drunk driving at 3 a.m., you can know for damn certain that old Aunt Dorothy heard every word of the call and was on the horn by 8 a.m. telling everyone in the family, LOL.

We had a Facebook scanner group here in town that was well run by a good moderator who enforced rules about what posts/comments were acceptable. She and her moderators attended several public hearings about our sheriff and police chief deciding to encrypt. In the end, they voted to encrypt and it was a done deal. Lots of people were upset for a good while, but the anger has faded and you rarely hear about it anymore.
 

KI5IRE

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Just thought I'd chime in since I work in TV news covering overnight breaking news.

We rely completely on open access to open police and fire dispatch channels to cover the news that happens overnight.

I've worked in all four major TV markets in Texas. Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston, San Antonio and Austin.

Dallas-Fort Worth is the most difficult market to work, not just due to the sheer size geographically, but also due the radio situation and encryption.

While we have a "media portal" and active calls sheets for some of the larger agencies like Dallas and Fort Worth, we don't have any way to hear some of the medium-size agencies like Arlington, Grand Prairie, Irving, Garland, Richardson and most recently, Highland Park and University Park, who are entirely surrounded by the city of Dallas and are all fully encrypted.

That means we have to rely ENTIRELY on PIOs to Tweet about an incident or send out a press release for incidents that happens in those cities. The vast majority of the time, they do not Tweet anything until AFTER the scene has cleared or until the next business day, after the PIO goes into work...if ever at all, unless there is an active threat to the community or a major traffic issue.

There is a legitimate and necessary function in society for the media to cover stories having to do with public safety and public safety issues. Furthermore, I don't believe in the whole "always film the police" or "copwatch" stuff, but another function of the press IS to ensure accountability of government officials and disseminate information that can be used by the community to hold government officials accountable. By that I do not mean filming the police and scrutinizing them for every thing they do, but I do mean knowing what is actually happening in the community, seeing it for ourselves (or in the media since not everyone can be at the scene) and allowing the press to document and distribute it for the community to see.

In my experience, there are so many shootings, robberies, carjackings, burglaries etc. that happen in the jurisdictions of the agencies I mentioned previously that we do not ever hear about and never get reported on... even some things like officer involved shootings. People really do not realize what is actually happening in their communities. That is what accountability I am talking about. We need to be holding our government officials accountable when crime begins increasing, but how can the general public know what questions to ask or even know that there is even a problem if they don't know what is truly happening.

Another issue is how does the press know what questions to ask if we can't even hear what is happening? There have been so many times PIOs and other officials have left out important details I heard over the air, that they either left out on accident or even possibly left out to keep from damaging the department's image, and they were able to confirm the info.

A big issue with the whole release information and press releases after the scene is clear and the media can run a stock photo is that we live in a visual society. People want to see things for themselves. People do not have the attention span anymore to sit there and listen to someone talk and just look at the anchor. People want to see the images video of 50+ shell casings littering a major intersection after a shooting, cars riddled with bullet holes etc., it helps convey the story better than just talking about what happened. If there's just some generic stock photo of crime scene tape, people are more likely to scroll past the article rather than read the article and actually know what's happening on their streets.

To expand on what I just mentioned above, I would also like to say I personally like running stories about our first responders that cast them in a good light. If I can get video of a police officer helping a 90 year-old lady change a tire on the side of the freeway, I'm going to shoot that. If I can get video of police rescuing someone out of a burning car or burning house, I'm going to shoot that. If I can get video of firefighters or police trying to save someone from flood waters, I'm going to shoot that. But I can't get that stuff on video if I can't hear the calls get dispatched. The message doesn't convey the same if I can't get video of it happening in real-time. Again, people want to see things to believe them. If people saw even 1/2 of what our first responders do, I bet there would be a lot less anti-police people in the world.

Whether government officials agree or not, the press has a legitimate function in society.

But if only all public safety agencies had the same mindset as the Austin Police Department... This is an excerpt from their general orders:
"The purpose of this order is to seek a balance between permitting the free flow of information to the public and the media while protecting both the prosecution's case and the rights of the accused from possible prejudicial publicity. Public information and positive media relations are an integral part of the operation of any public service agency and APD is no exception. Most citizens have little contact with law enforcement and their opinions of the police are often formed by our Department's portrayal in the media. The release of public information and maintenance of good media relations is a crucial element of APD's mission. Employees must maintain a good rapport with the public and the media and deal with them in a courteous manner. The media has a legitimate function in our society and the public trust of the police can be enhanced through media relations."
 

WX4JCW

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Yeah, I'm open to solutions/compromises. My point is that scanner listeners, for the most part, don't understand all the moving parts involved in this. It's not as simple as throwing a switch. Anyone who thinks that having an officer/dispatcher do that isn't understanding the issues and challenges involved. None of this has anything to do with the entertainment value of scanner listening. And, no matter what hobbyists like to claim, it IS entertainment.

The requirements to protect PII in my state isn't an option. It must be done. There some leeway to handle dealing with emergencies, but that isn't permission to avoid doing what's right.
None of the documents from the State of California mention anything about scanner listeners. It's not even on their radar. The requirement is to meet the standards for protecting PII as the agencies agreed to do when they signed up for CLETS access. How that is accomplished is really well defined. FIPS 140-2. How it's set up on the radio system is up to each agency.
I'm all for dispatch in the clear. That solves some issues. But not all agencies have multiple channels to choose from.
Since we live in a litigious society, with lawyers hovering like flies over excrement, an agency failing to properly protect PII is a real concern. All it's going to take is one person getting their identity stolen and loosely linking that back to a law enforcement agency running their drivers license (even if that's not the source), and some agency will get their collective rear ends sued off. The cost of paying for that lawsuit and settlement will come out of the hides of the taxpayers. That specific scenario has been brought up several times, and they were more surprised it hasn't happened already.

Remember, in California, this isn't some new scheme they recently dreamed up. The agencies agreed to protect PII when they signed up for CLETS access (decades ago). The only thing that changed is that the state is enforcing the contract. It's simple, protect PII or lose CLETS access. Losing CLETS access comes with a lot of officer safety risks.
And if you think this concern over PII protection isn't going to spread, you probably haven't been paying attention.
I’m actually paying attention, I disagree with the entertainment aspect, we will have to agree to disagree I guess on that point, but let’s be honest the hobbyists are not going away, and it’s becoming a point of principle no matter how you guys discount that and blow it off, and while I dislike the current situation going on with the anger in law enforcement, one would be a fool not to use the current environment to ones advantage in this fight (the whole enemy of my enemy thing) every time one of the sysadmins (again a general blanket description) belittles a segment of the population, I take great joy when their lives become difficult,
 

MTS2000des

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The "riots" resulted in essentially zero deaths - public or private. The encryption used at Lafayette Park in DC almost resulted in the total loss of democracy in the USA.
Nonsense. Where were you during the rioting in June? Sitting on a sofa in a parent's basement I'm sure. I was downtown evacuating my center.
I'm done listening to anti-government horse manure.
 

mmckenna

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Whether government officials agree or not, the press has a legitimate function in society.

Absolutely. I agree 100%. The legitimate news media has an important role in society and we absolutely need them. But as the Cigar guy said above, the news media needs to stay neutral, no matter how it impacts their ratings. The news media pandering to the specific political party they align with has got to go.


But…..
The role of the media does not preclude encryption. Both can exist. The way to do that is providing a radio set up for RX only on appropriate talk groups to legitimate news agencies. Not random dude with a cell phone.

That allows the law enforcement agency to use encryption and the media to have an appropriate level of access. It allows lost/stolen/missing radios to be killed, and would allow updated encryption keys to be pushed out to the radios as necessary.
That's not going to work on all radio systems, but it's an option.

If an agency won't provide that, then that is an issue between the law enforcement agency and the media. It has nothing to do with encryption.
 

mmckenna

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I’m actually paying attention, I disagree with the entertainment aspect, we will have to agree to disagree I guess on that point, but let’s be honest the hobbyists are not going away, and it’s becoming a point of principle no matter how you guys discount that and blow it off, and while I dislike the current situation going on with the anger in law enforcement, one would be a fool not to use the current environment to ones advantage in this fight (the whole enemy of my enemy thing) every time one of the sysadmins (again a general blanket description) belittles a segment of the population, I take great joy when their lives become difficult,


Scanner listening is a hobby and is a form of entertainment. Those public safety agencies using scanners for monitoring adjacent agencies have options other than scanners. Legitimate news media should have access, and that doesn't mean that encryption should not be used. There are established ways around that.

And I'm not belittling anyone. I got my start with CB's, scanners and short wave radios, just like most here, and I haven't forgotten my roots. Several of us are working in the industry and have knowledge about why encryption is being used, and why it is necessary. That point of view is different than what most have in the hobby. It's not anyone trying to belittle anyone, it's people that have direct knowledge trying to share the realities about what is happening. What others choose to do with that info is entirely up to them.
 

WX4JCW

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Scanner listening is a hobby and is a form of entertainment. Those public safety agencies using scanners for monitoring adjacent agencies have options other than scanners. Legitimate news media should have access, and that doesn't mean that encryption should not be used. There are established ways around that.

And I'm not belittling anyone. I got my start with CB's, scanners and short wave radios, just like most here, and I haven't forgotten my roots. Several of us are working in the industry and have knowledge about why encryption is being used, and why it is necessary. That point of view is different than what most have in the hobby. It's not anyone trying to belittle anyone, it's people that have direct knowledge trying to share the realities about what is happening. What others choose to do with that info is entirely up to them.
and I have no problem with that assessment, and I wasn't accusing you personally of belittling anyone, if that implication was made I apologize
this argument will never really be settled in a forum such as this one I'm guessing, sometimes the attitudes of the professionals rub me the wrong way, In my opinion, it's really just politics, I was part of that arena for a long time.

this whole debate is a sore spot for both sides, I get it that this is frustrating, a lot of agencies either can't understand why the "hobbyists" are making such a stink about this, most don't care because no one has really gotten their attention and for the hobbyists and those who want to reverse this trend need to be more effective in getting that attention, make the political climate hot enough and things get done.
 

mmckenna

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this whole debate is a sore spot for both sides, I get it that this is frustrating, a lot of agencies either can't understand why the "hobbyists" are making such a stink about this, most don't care because no one has really gotten their attention and for the hobbyists and those who want to reverse this trend need to be more effective in getting that attention, make the political climate hot enough and things get done.

This has been talked about frequently on this site, and I honestly haven't seen any argument against encryption that made a compelling case from my point of view. The news media angle is a good one, but that's easily solved, and should be solved.

Other than the news media, the arguments against encryption come down to essentially "I invested money in my scanner and want to listen to radio traffic". I get it. Really. I spent a lot of time in my teenage years listening to a scanner.
But the reasons agencies are switching to encryption carry a lot more weight than preserving the investment of a hobbyist. Securing private information is a huge issue. The cost of not doing that far outweigh any costs of going to encrypted systems. In California, it's been mandated and it's not up for discussion. The only question is "when". The answer to that was January 01, 2021, with waivers for agencies that were not ready to switch. I had to compose a reply to the state DOJ stating what our status was, what was keeping us from utilizing encryption by the deadline, and what our timeline was to meet the requirements. We're good for now, but at some point they're going to want to know we're meeting the requirements, or the CLETS plug gets pulled.

Hopefully your local agencies will keep primary dispatch in the clear and give you something to listen to. It's likely we may try it for a while, but I'm not going to be surprised if the chief decides that it all gets moved over. Our county is planning on going full time encrypted on all law enforcement channels.
 

LD723

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This has been talked about frequently on this site, and I honestly haven't seen any argument against encryption that made a compelling case from my point of view. The news media angle is a good one, but that's easily solved, and should be solved.

Other than the news media, the arguments against encryption come down to essentially "I invested money in my scanner and want to listen to radio traffic". I get it. Really. I spent a lot of time in my teenage years listening to a scanner.
But the reasons agencies are switching to encryption carry a lot more weight than preserving the investment of a hobbyist. Securing private information is a huge issue. The cost of not doing that far outweigh any costs of going to encrypted systems. In California, it's been mandated and it's not up for discussion. The only question is "when". The answer to that was January 01, 2021, with waivers for agencies that were not ready to switch. I had to compose a reply to the state DOJ stating what our status was, what was keeping us from utilizing encryption by the deadline, and what our timeline was to meet the requirements. We're good for now, but at some point they're going to want to know we're meeting the requirements, or the CLETS plug gets pulled.

Hopefully your local agencies will keep primary dispatch in the clear and give you something to listen to. It's likely we may try it for a while, but I'm not going to be surprised if the chief decides that it all gets moved over. Our county is planning on going full time encrypted on all law enforcement channels.
Hold on a minute your quote has my name even though I didn't say that lol glitch?
 

DeoVindice

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The role of the media does not preclude encryption. Both can exist. The way to do that is providing a radio set up for RX only on appropriate talk groups to legitimate news agencies. Not random dude with a cell phone.

That allows the law enforcement agency to use encryption and the media to have an appropriate level of access. It allows lost/stolen/missing radios to be killed, and would allow updated encryption keys to be pushed out to the radios as necessary.
That's not going to work on all radio systems, but it's an option.

If an agency won't provide that, then that is an issue between the law enforcement agency and the media. It has nothing to do with encryption.

That's a logical compromise. A balance needs to be struck between protecting sensitive information and forcing accountability. Logically, encrypted transmissions would be recorded and appropriately-redacted transcripts available via a FOIA request.

As much as listening to dispatch is interesting, I have to say that it bothers me hearing PII sent in the clear. One agency near me is 100% in the clear, the other is mainly in the clear but maintains an encrypted P25 channel for tactical traffic. That's an agency of about twelve deputies.
 

mmckenna

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That's a logical compromise. A balance needs to be struck between protecting sensitive information and forcing accountability. Logically, encrypted transmissions would be recorded and appropriately-redacted transcripts available via a FOIA request.

Yeah, there is absolutely room for a logical compromise. Key word is "logical". Understanding the logic behind all of this requires some knowledge of all the moving parts. Unfortunately most who are just monitoring don't have the full picture or appreciate the legal issues of it all.

Usually any channel that passes through a dispatch console gets recorded. We're set up two ways:
Each dispatch console has their own traffic recorded. (phone and radio)
Each channel that appears on the console gets recorded.
Most phone lines get recorded.
Doesn't matter if it's encrypted or not. It gets recorded and GPS time stamped and becomes evidence.

As much as listening to dispatch is interesting, I have to say that it bothers me hearing PII sent in the clear. One agency near me is 100% in the clear, the other is mainly in the clear but maintains an encrypted P25 channel for tactical traffic. That's an agency of about twelve deputies.

And it would likely bother you more if it was your PII sent in the clear. You never know who's listening and you never know what they'll choose to do with that info. Might be something as simple as a fender bender that's not your fault, and now your name, address, birth date and drivers license number is out there in the clear.
 

potala1369

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Does anyone believe that the USSS, the FBI, ATF, DEA, USMS, and other Federal agencies such as USAFOSI, USARCID, or USNCIS are going to surrender their radio security? All of these are LE agencies and would be affected. What about other state, county, and local agencies? What about HIPPA mandates for EMS, Fire, hospitals?

Who is going to enforce it? The FCC? The FCC only acts if big money is involved or if someone is becoming obnoxious enough such as crank hams, pirates, etc.

It is a stupidly written bill with no basis in the reality of governmental operation.
As I understand it, the FCC has no control of any of the Federal radio systems; only radio systems that they license.
 

K9JLR

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Including such a provision about encryption in this bill would pose legitimate constitutional issues about that particular facet.

Police powers rest with the states, in so far as exercises of the police powers by states and their chartered subdivisions must respect the individual rights guaranteed in the Constitution while also not intruding on regulatory areas where federal law is supreme (this bill appears to deal with areas where the federal government has ascertained a constitutional authority to act as such - the courts can decide if they overstepped those boundaries).

However, sticking a provision in there mandating that states and other units of local government modify or abrogate encryption in the name of transparency takes the idea of transparency to a level not ever asserted to exist by the courts, and arguably poses a legitimate issue of infringing on the Tenth Amendment where states' rights is concerned.
 

nsrailfan6130

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I can understand the need for encryption when the situation warrants (Traffic stops, HIPAA related info, High risk incidents, Detectives etc. ) But, for lower risk situations, that would be a different story altogether. I remember reading in some spots where people were saying that they had the right to listen to scanner traffic, that's true, but, my biggest worry about putting PII out in the clear is that the wrong people could use (As an example) my name or someone else's name for that matter in a malicious manner. There's some things that aren't meant for public consumption.
 

mmckenna

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...people were saying that they had the right to listen to scanner traffic...

People absolutely have the right to listen to scanner traffic. That's not being questioned.
The issue arises where scanner listeners assume that because they've always had radio traffic in the clear, that it must continue that way.
That's a false assumption.
The users of the radio system can enable encryption if they do not want others listening in. That's being driven at multiple levels. The PII concerns that are being used to require encryption in California are not new. They've been on the books for a long time. The only difference is that now the state is requiring the agencies to meet the requirements they originally agreed to.
The argument isn't between scanner listeners and the law enforcement agencies, at least not here in California. The argument would be between scanner listeners and the DOJ. The DOJ is unlikely to back down on the protection of PII requirement. It's been required for a long time.

The best you can likely hope for is that an agency will leave some channels in the clear and move the radio traffic handling private info over to an encrypted channel.
But that's not going to work for -every- agency. Some only have one channel, or one channel that covers an area (CHP).
Trying to force an agency to not encrypt means that this sort of traffic is going to move to other means. Cellular, terminal, or something else. There are options that don't involve radios that can be monitored by scanner listeners.

It's a double edged sword. Force a law restricting encryption, and the radio traffic may move to other means that are still cannot be monitored.

While I agree that this bill won't go anywhere in relation of encryption, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Scanner listeners don't carry a lot of clout with the law enforcement agencies, so making demands isn't likely to go too far. But having got my start with scanners, CB, short wave, I can appreciate what the hobby wants. I just don't think it's going to go very far.
 

nsrailfan6130

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Speaking of MDT's, since this was mentioned, Wasn't this supposed to be THE "go to" for the more sensitive information like LEIN/NCIC related information?

Trying to force an agency to not encrypt means that this sort of traffic is going to move to other means. Cellular, terminal, or something else.
 
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