H.R.1280 (AKA Police Reform) - A Great Opportunity to Get Encryption Banned

[MTS2000des]

Not everyone has MCTs, it certainly is not safe to be using an MCT to send sensitive information at 100mph. MCTs also preclude timely notificaiton of developing situations. There is a reason why voice dispatch radio is still the PRIMARY means of communication.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

Including such a provision about encryption in this bill would pose legitimate constitutional issues about that particular facet.

The federal government does it with grants for radios. If you use federal grant money for radio equipment, it must be capable of P25 use (or something to that effect). They could do the same for forcing open primary dispatch frequencies. If an agency wants federal grant money, the agency must maintain an open dispatch frequency.

 

[12dbsinad]

This has been talked about frequently on this site, and I honestly haven't seen any argument against encryption that made a compelling case from my point of view. The news media angle is a good one, but that's easily solved, and should be solved.

Other than the news media, the arguments against encryption come down to essentially "I invested money in my scanner and want to listen to radio traffic". I get it. Really. I spent a lot of time in my teenage years listening to a scanner.
But the reasons agencies are switching to encryption carry a lot more weight than preserving the investment of a hobbyist. Securing private information is a huge issue. The cost of not doing that far outweigh any costs of going to encrypted systems. In California, it's been mandated and it's not up for discussion. The only question is "when". The answer to that was January 01, 2021, with waivers for agencies that were not ready to switch. I had to compose a reply to the state DOJ stating what our status was, what was keeping us from utilizing encryption by the deadline, and what our timeline was to meet the requirements. We're good for now, but at some point they're going to want to know we're meeting the requirements, or the CLETS plug gets pulled.

Hopefully your local agencies will keep primary dispatch in the clear and give you something to listen to. It's likely we may try it for a while, but I'm not going to be surprised if the chief decides that it all gets moved over. Our county is planning on going full time encrypted on all law enforcement channels.

So how is CHP planning to Enc the lowband anyway? Heck, you can barely even get LB radio's never mind encryption.

 

[reedeb]

I was planning on getting a new digital/analog scanner BUT changed my mind as everyone is encrypting around me. I just settled on other stuff to while away my days.

 

[nsrailfan6130]

I am not disputing any of this......I was just using the MDT as an example for things like Routine stops and things of that nature. I also didn't think a department would be dumb enough to use an MDT while in pursuit.

Not everyone has MCTs, it certainly is not safe to be using an MCT to send sensitive information at 100mph. MCTs also preclude timely notificaiton of developing situations. There is a reason why voice dispatch radio is still the PRIMARY means of communication.

 

[mmckenna]

Speaking of MDT's, since this was mentioned, Wasn't this supposed to be THE "go to" for the more sensitive information like LEIN/NCIC related information?

Yes, as well as handheld devices using LTE.

and that works well, except when it doesn't. Expecting an officer to by typing on a keyboard or slippery glass while chasing someone isn't a solution. Some things are easier done using voice.

 

[mmckenna]

So how is CHP planning to Enc the lowband anyway? Heck, you can barely even get LB radio's never mind encryption.

CHP is replacing all their mobiles with the EF Johnson version of the Kenwood NX-5000 line. They have a 100 watt low band radio and in it's Kenwood version, it'll do NXDN and Analog, and will support encryption at AES-256 level.

I have no idea if that is what they are going to do. I know they tried to get a waiver or something from CA DOJ, but it was shot down. Will be interesting to see what they do.

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

So how is CHP planning to Enc the lowband anyway? Heck, you can barely even get LB radio's never mind encryption.

it will probably have similar rules to HIPAA: do your best but if you have to break the rules then it’s allowed.

When possible, use anything else but if you have to use low band in the clear then that’s what you use.

 

[mmckenna]

it will probably have similar rules to HIPAA: do your best but if you have to break the rules then it’s allowed.

When possible, use anything else but if you have to use low band in the clear then that’s what you use.

Unfortunately, no. The term "must" is used frequently in the document. There is no waiver for "well, we gave it our best shot."

 

[12dbsinad]

Unfortunately, no. The term "must" is used frequently in the document. There is no waiver for "well, we gave it our best shot."

Leave it to California, land of the pistachios, home of the government overreach.
Of all the things that trouble the state and they are worried about passing a bill that agencies can't meet, but that's a whole other conversation.
Lowband NXDN with AES256 would be nice, plenty of frequencies available too!

Pretty soon you may be riding a horse to the tower sites mmckenna when they totally ban gas! Just don't drill a 3/4 hole in it! LOL

 

[mmckenna]

Leave it to California, land of the pistachios, home of the government overreach.
Of all the things that trouble the state and they are worried about passing a bill that agencies can't meet, but that's a whole other conversation.
Lowband NXDN with AES256 would be nice, plenty of frequencies available too!

Pretty soon you may be riding a horse to the tower sites mmckenna when they totally ban gas! Just don't drill a 3/4 hole in it! LOL

It's not a bill, and it's not anything new. The law enforcement agencies agreed to this a long long time ago when they signed for California Law Enforcement Terminal System access. It's just finally being enforced. Since so many agencies have gone digital, it's probably the right time to do it.

Agencies can meet it, and they've known for a long time that they needed to meet it, it's just been ignored.

Wouldn't mind the horse. I've got one site that is only accessible by helicopter or hike in. I haven't caught a helicopter ride there, yet. Usually I have to hike in. Site was originally built using a pack mule team. A horse would be an improvement. As for the horse having gas, I doubt a hole drilled in it would be a good idea.

I'd love to try low band NXDN. Hopefully CHP comes up with a good solution. As a taxpayer, I don't want to be paying for someone deciding that they can cover the entire state on 700MHz.

 

[LD723]

Has there ever been logged use of P25, DMR, or NXDN on low band ever in this country🤔

 

[kb7gjy]

I'd love to try low band NXDN. Hopefully CHP comes up with a good solution. As a taxpayer, I don't want to be paying for someone deciding that they can cover the entire state on 700MHz.

Well there you have it.. CHP will be mandated to cover every mm of CA with at a minimum of 700 MHz. Most likely will push for 4.9 GHZ

I kid... I kid...

 

[mmckenna]

Has there ever been logged use of P25, DMR, or NXDN on low band ever in this country🤔

I think the military has P25 capability on some of their low band radios.

I don't know of any manufacturers in the USA for low band DMR. Even the Kenwood radios, which will do DMR on all the other bands, don't do it on low band.
Kenwood only sells the NX-5800H and the EFJ variant on low band, no other radios except for the TK-6110.
Not sure if the EF Johnson variant of the NX-5800 does NXDN. Not really any reason it couldn't do P25, it's just the firmware...

 

[12dbsinad]

It's not a bill, and it's not anything new. The law enforcement agencies agreed to this a long long time ago when they signed for California Law Enforcement Terminal System access. It's just finally being enforced. Since so many agencies have gone digital, it's probably the right time to do it.

Agencies can meet it, and they've known for a long time that they needed to meet it, it's just been ignored.

Wouldn't mind the horse. I've got one site that is only accessible by helicopter or hike in. I haven't caught a helicopter ride there, yet. Usually I have to hike in. Site was originally built using a pack mule team. A horse would be an improvement. As for the horse having gas, I doubt a hole drilled in it would be a good idea.

I'd love to try low band NXDN. Hopefully CHP comes up with a good solution. As a taxpayer, I don't want to be paying for someone deciding that they can cover the entire state on 700MHz.

Yet, one of the biggest agencies in the State can not meet it as they heavily rely on LB for comms. The whole thing just seems stupid. The people who "agreed" upon it probably are pencil pushers who know nothing about radio.

What are the requirements for encryption type?

 

[APX8000]

AES-256 usually.

 

[mmckenna]

Yet, one of the biggest agencies in the State can not meet it as they heavily rely on LB for comms. The whole thing just seems stupid. The people who "agreed" upon it probably are pencil pushers who know nothing about radio.

What are the requirements for encryption type?

Well, they probably could meet it, if they tried. Since this has been on the books for a while, it should have been something they've been thinking about for a long time. I suspect that the migration from the old TK-690's to the Kenwood/EFJohnson low band radios has some thought behind it. They wouldn't blow that kind of money on new radios without some thinking ahead. The issue isn't if they can do encryption, the issue is how fast they have to implement it. While the radios exist and are being installed, it's the repeaters that will need to catch up.

And it's not pencil pushers who would be agreeing to these contracts. They are done at the Chief level. I've been involved in this stuff for a long time, and it's the Cheif I'm dealing with. I had to write the reply to CA DOJ and she signed it.

And don't be too quick to blame California for this. It's coming down from the FBI, and the requirements are based of the FBI CJIS manual. So expect this to happen nationwide at some point. At that point, I'll take immense joy in picking apart what ever state you live in….

Per FBI, AES-256 FIPS 140-2 certified is required.

Requirements Companion Document to the FBI CJIS Security ...

 

[12dbsinad]

Well, they probably could meet it, if they tried. Since this has been on the books for a while, it should have been something they've been thinking about for a long time. I suspect that the migration from the old TK-690's to the Kenwood/EFJohnson low band radios has some thought behind it. They wouldn't blow that kind of money on new radios without some thinking ahead. The issue isn't if they can do encryption, the issue is how fast they have to implement it. While the radios exist and are being installed, it's the repeaters that will need to catch up.

And it's not pencil pushers who would be agreeing to these contracts. They are done at the Chief level. I've been involved in this stuff for a long time, and it's the Cheif I'm dealing with. I had to write the reply to CA DOJ and she signed it.

And don't be too quick to blame California for this. It's coming down from the FBI, and the requirements are based of the FBI CJIS manual. So expect this to happen nationwide at some point. At that point, I'll take immense joy in picking apart what ever state you live in….

Per FBI, AES-256 FIPS 140-2 certified is required.

Requirements Companion Document to the FBI CJIS Security ...

It's just, well, Cali is well known for some crazy rules and regs, that's why I singled it out. I have people I do business with who live their that will tell you the same thing. This of course has nothing to do with you personally, I hope you're not under that impression.

However, if you're a concerned taxpayer like stated in your previous post, you should be concerned. A statewide 700 system will probably be presented by the big Mothership. No company is going to invest AES encryption into lowband. It's just not gonna happen. And to set a mandate so soon just seems ludicrous. This of course is just my own opinion, so take it with less than a grain of salt.

 

[DeoVindice]

Has there ever been logged use of P25, DMR, or NXDN on low band ever in this country🤔

PRC-152s have had the capability to use P25 on 30 MHz on up since 2006. Whether or not it's been used, I haven't the foggiest.

Well there you have it.. CHP will be mandated to cover every mm of CA with at a minimum of 700 MHz. Most likely will push for 4.9 GHZ

I kid... I kid...

There aren't enough dollars in the state for that many sites, and they'd probably get tied up in permitting hell anyways because of some endangered variety of gnat found only on mountaintops in NorCal.

 

[jland138]

Here's a link (from a NAPCO presentation earlier this year) to the Criminal Justice Information Services (CJIS) Security Policy: CJIS Security Policy Resource Center | Federal Bureau of Investigation