H.R.1280 (AKA Police Reform) - A Great Opportunity to Get Encryption Banned

[radio3353]

For those of you whining about encryption, how about we offer you a trade...

Encryption of public safety comms will be disallowed IF you agree to opening up your currently encrypted cell phone conversations you all enjoy to the public? Just like the good old days with cordless phones and listening in on your neighbors.
How about it?

 

[12dbsinad]

For those of you whining about encryption, how about we offer you a trade...

Encryption of public safety comms will be disallowed IF you agree to opening up your currently encrypted cell phone conversations you all enjoy to the public? Just like the good old days with cordless phones and listening in on your neighbors.
How about it?

That's pretty much apples to oranges.

But I'll trade, as long as in return the use of videotaping without consent is banned, and social media platforms dump livestreams and implement a delay.

 

[12dbsinad]

We have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Most of us choose not to share info on the internets that we don't want shared with the rest of the world.
One of the many reasons I don't share any of my call signs, phone number or e-mail address. Same reason I have passwords on accounts.
And as for me, personally, I don't want any of my personal info shared over the radio. I've met some of you scanner listeners, and you're a shifty lot….
Nice thing is, it'll soon be in my favor. My personal info doesn't belong freely floating around on the airwaves for anyone/everyone to listen to.

Except there is no right or assumption of privacy when in public. All the information that you're concerened about going over the air is already public record. PII in not protected when it comes to interaction with police.

I'm more concerned with the "react" guys with a bunch of amber lights and a million antennas on their Ford escort vs the average scanner listener.

 

[radio3353]

That's pretty much apples to oranges.

Why? Because you are not getting your way? News flash...the world does not revolve around you.

 

[12dbsinad]

Why? Because you are not getting your way? News flash...the world does not revolve around you.

It seems like everyone here can have a civil conversation... besides you. I'm not sure why you want to ruin that.

The only thing you're attributing to is a closed thread, so let's agree to suck it up and agree to disagree. Deal?

 

[AJAT]

For those of you whining about encryption, how about we offer you a trade...

Encryption of public safety comms will be disallowed IF you agree to opening up your currently encrypted cell phone conversations you all enjoy to the public? Just like the good old days with cordless phones and listening in on your neighbors.
How about it?

If I am at home on my own time speaking on my own cell phone it should be encrypted. If I am on taxpayers dime, serving the taxpayers, and am held accountable to the taxpayers it is a legitimate debate if it should be encrypted, or hidden from the taxpayers. I am NOT making an argument for or against encryption, but that is why it is apples to oranges.

 

[W8KIC]

Why? Because you are not getting your way? News flash...the world does not revolve around you.

And it doesn’t revolve around public officials who’re attempting to convince the public at large into believing that “transparency“ means something other than how the Webster Dictionary defines it! I remember being told many years ago that when the feds impose a duty tax on various goods that come into the U.S. that it’s done so in order to protect manufacturers stateside. The problem with that explanation? Uncle Sam is the one who keeps the money and stateside manufacturers haven’t a clue that the imposition of a duty tax on individuals ever took place.

 

[bill4long]

Except there is no right or assumption of privacy when in public.

Well, it's a bit more nuanced than that. Nobody has a right to privacy in public when it comes to their faces, conversations, the clothes they're wearing, the music they are listening to, etc., when they are in public places. When a person is in public, everything he does and says is public information. Public is public. But things neither expressed in public nor available via public sources is not public information and should not be conveyed over clear channels. For example, drivers' license numbers and Social Security numbers.

 

[mmckenna]

Except there is no right or assumption of privacy when in public. All the information that you're concerened about going over the air is already public record. PII in not protected when it comes to interaction with police.

PII is protected when it comes to interaction with the police. Read the documents I linked to.
Most of my personal info is not public record. An annoying amount is, but hopefully some of that will change.

I'm more concerned with the "react" guys with a bunch of amber lights and a million antennas on their Ford escort vs the average scanner listener.

I'd probably agree with you there.

 

[12dbsinad]

PII is protected when it comes to interaction with the police. Read the documents I linked to.
Most of my personal info is not public record. An annoying amount is, but hopefully some of that will change.



I'd probably agree with you there.

Defund Encryption Update

And this is where the blender starts to cloud. PHI is Federally protected health datum. PII is not "protected" when it becomes an element of an interaction with Police or certain public services, it becomes public information(except certain witness/victim identifiers). There is no "right" or...

forums.radioreference.com

post 86.

 

[mmckenna]

Defund Encryption Update

And this is where the blender starts to cloud. PHI is Federally protected health datum. PII is not "protected" when it becomes an element of an interaction with Police or certain public services, it becomes public information(except certain witness/victim identifiers). There is no "right" or...

forums.radioreference.com

post 86.

No police agency is going to willingly hand out private info on any individual to a random citizen for no reason.

You can prove me wrong by posting the last 4 digits of my drivers license number.

 

[12dbsinad]

No police agency is going to willingly hand out private info on any individual to a random citizen for no reason.

You can prove me wrong by posting the last 4 digits of my drivers license number.

My point is no information like your name and plate number is going against any type of federal law, it’s public information and you can access that info from the internet. I can read your plate number from a photograph and get anything I want. My point was not to test what police will supply.

 

[mmckenna]

Defund Encryption Update

And this is where the blender starts to cloud. PHI is Federally protected health datum. PII is not "protected" when it becomes an element of an interaction with Police or certain public services, it becomes public information(except certain witness/victim identifiers). There is no "right" or...

forums.radioreference.com

post 86.

Don't get me wrong. I totally get where you are coming from with this.
When we interact with the government, what we do often becomes public record.
But those records are usually not out there in real time.
Getting my drivers license number, SSN and other sensitive info from a law enforcement agency by using a Freedom of Information Act request is very likely (and should) have such info redacted.

The whole point of this is that agencies are realizing that they need to do their own part to protect others from identity theft. They know that freely giving out information that can be used to steal someones identity is not a good practice. When I was working with our department on this, one of the officers even said "I'm surprised we haven't been sued by someone for this". The CA DOJ isn't doing this to hide evil doing by law enforcement from "those meddling kids" with their scanners. They are doing it as part of their job to not do things that would allow identity theft to happen.

While my personal info may be out there somewhere on the 'net, it doesn't mean it needs to continue that way, and it doesn't mean that agencies do not need to clean up their act.

 

[mmckenna]

My point is no information like your name and plate number is going against any type of federal law, it’s public information and you can access that info from the internet. I can read your plate number from a photograph and get anything I want. My point was not to test what police will supply.

OK, so tell me where I can run a license plate and get results back providing personal information.

 

[Direwolf131]

For those of you whining about encryption, how about we offer you a trade...

Encryption of public safety comms will be disallowed IF you agree to opening up your currently encrypted cell phone conversations you all enjoy to the public? Just like the good old days with cordless phones and listening in on your neighbors.
How about it?

I've been into radio a long time, HF, and scanning both, there are very very good reasons why we encrypt some radio traffic, BLM/antifa types in that certain political party are a main reason we encrypt!

 

[N4DES]

OK, so tell me where I can run a license plate and get results back providing personal information.

My HOA uses a service similar to this to get that information... Run a Free License Plate Lookup & Car Plate Number Search - InfoTracer

 

[12dbsinad]

OK, so tell me where I can run a license plate and get results back providing personal information.

Several companies operate independent, ALPR databases, these databases are even updated in real time. Do a little searching and you'll find them.

This is just one example of databases derived from license plate numbers and you as the public can access them. You can literally type in a plate number and do a search. These sites continue to run without being shut down, why is that? Also, like I said in prior posts, police logs have been done for years and continue to do so in many area's. They give out name, address, type of incident, etc. They obviously do not give out personal SSN numbers, just like nobody has the need to do it over the air either.

I want to make it clear that I do not wish anyone's personal info to be exposed. I just think there is some misconception about this whole California DOJ MOU about encryption regardless of your actual stance on the subject. It's not legislated federal law, and PII is in fact lost when dealing with the police, obvioulsy with stipulations.

 

[12dbsinad]

My HOA uses a service similar to this to get that information... Run a Free License Plate Lookup & Car Plate Number Search - InfoTracer

It found my plate number and if I wanted to pay 3.95 I could get all sorts of info

 

[mmckenna]

I want to make it clear that I do not wish anyone's personal info to be exposed. I just think there is some misconception about this whole California DOJ MOU about encryption regardless of your actual stance on the subject. It's not legislated federal law, and PII is in fact lost when dealing with the police, obvioulsy with stipulations.

Right, it's NOT a law. Agencies can choose to ignore it.
However, the source of the information is CA DOJ CLETS. DOJ says they will disconnect the agency from the CLETS network if they do not comply with the security requirements. Agencies are welcome to get that service from someone else if they don't like it. Oh, that's right, they can't.
(I have NO idea if DOJ has done this or not. Their document stated that it would happen if agencies didn't comply with the agreement they signed originally.)

So, officer does a stop. They can't run the plate, so they have no idea what they are dealing with. I guess dispatch could always pay the $3.95 and pay someone else for the info. And we know they'll not let anyone else manipulate that info, and it will always be admissible in court because it's a reputable source on the internet and they paid $3.95 for it. Car might be stolen, might not. Driver maybe found someone that was willing to scrub all their info out of the internet database.
Officer asks for drivers license, but they can't run it. They don't know if you are Mr. Nice guy heading to church on Sunday morning and then on to read to elderly people at the rest home, or if you are a wanted felon. But, that's OK, the officers are willing to take that risk. And the general public is totally OK with letting the wanted felon walk because the agency didn't want to meet the requirements that they originally agreed to years ago.
That'll teach them!

 

[12dbsinad]

Right, it's NOT a law. Agencies can choose to ignore it.
However, the source of the information is CA DOJ CLETS. DOJ says they will disconnect the agency from the CLETS network if they do not comply with the security requirements. Agencies are welcome to get that service from someone else if they don't like it. Oh, that's right, they can't.
(I have NO idea if DOJ has done this or not. Their document stated that it would happen if agencies didn't comply with the agreement they signed originally.)

So, officer does a stop. They can't run the plate, so they have no idea what they are dealing with. I guess dispatch could always pay the $3.95 and pay someone else for the info. And we know they'll not let anyone else manipulate that info, and it will always be admissible in court because it's a reputable source on the internet and they paid $3.95 for it. Car might be stolen, might not. Driver maybe found someone that was willing to scrub all their info out of the internet database.
Officer asks for drivers license, but they can't run it. They don't know if you are Mr. Nice guy heading to church on Sunday morning and then on to read to elderly people at the rest home, or if you are a wanted felon. But, that's OK, the officers are willing to take that risk. And the general public is totally OK with letting the wanted felon walk because the agency didn't want to meet the requirements that they originally agreed to years ago.
That'll teach them!

Trust me man, I get it... I absolutely get it. Sometime it’s hard to express that via text because it leaves out your emotions.

Anyway I’m gonna sign on this one, you be safe out there and I’ll catch ya down the road..