Ham radio: Old technology gets new respect

[iamhere300]

As someone who has been involved with emergency communications for years and years, including public safety, HAM, and alternative forms, here are a few observations.

1. More and more agencies are getting into back up systems, command posts, cache of radios, etc. This minimizes a lot of the need for HAM radio backup.

2. As agencies get more and more technical in their dispatch centers, the need for a HAM radio solution tends to dwindle. With backups upon backups, more advanced radio systems, and the backup of cellular (Yes, I know all about the handicaps that these things also bring to the table) it simply is not bring HAM radio to the table.

3. HAM radio operators tend to be unwilling (for the most part) to get the proper amount and kind of training needed, and KEEP up those skills. Simply talking on the radio, no matter how short you can keep the conversation, simply is not all there is. A lot of this is the fault of the agencies involved, but again if they don't see the need for ham radio, why train them? Getting most HAM's to even take the basic 100/200/700 classes is an exercise in pulling teeth, and those are easy, and online.

It takes an investment in time on both sides of the fence, a lot of time. Just because you passed a HAM test is sort of like saying "we hired you as a police officer, now go forth and enforce the law, run lights and sirens, and save the world. You passed the test didn't you?"

4. Professionalism. As a group. Really guys?

5. Security clearances, and keeping them current. Credentialing. (Yes, I realize you had a top secret clearance when you were in Nam, but that don't quite cut it now)

6. Even a lot of parades, marathons, etc are going to their own means of communication.

Just some observations I have seen, as EMA and FD, as well as the radio side.

 

[iamhere300]

And just to make sure, I am sure YOUR program does not suffer from any of these programs - I just said MOST. No reason to post how wonderful you are if you feel these things do not apply to your group. You might want to take a harder look though.

 

[elk2370bruce]

And just to make sure, I am sure YOUR program does not suffer from any of these programs - I just said MOST. No reason to post how wonderful you are if you feel these things do not apply to your group. You might want to take a harder look though.

It is not MY program. People far more qualified than me were the leaders and they remain so I just complete the required training, and do what the puiblic safety leaders tell me to do. Then I go home.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

A lot easier to attack a person than a fact. Explain how your radio is going to communicate with emergency services. Tell me about the time you or anybody you know was asked to provide emergency communications. As far as I know it hasn't happened. Our Nation has had many natural disasters. tell me about how Amateur Radio was called in to save the day. Just about everyone over the age of 7 carries a radio. It is called a cell phone. Not a big deal. Tell me what you can do that someone with a cb radio can not do in an emergency.

Wow, what vitriol. Why?

Let me give you some information about some "Facts" with respect to the actual scenario which occurred out here a while back.

Maybe that would give you some ideas.

There is a communications center in a city on the west side of the county. It dispatches sheriff, fire and a city's pd for the entire county. There are multiple towers for the east, west and central parts of the county. There is also a back-up emergency comm center on the east side of the county.

Their comm center has problems. It was done on the cheap and with KW which is crap. It shows, constantly. You could probably count the days without problems easier than the days with.

During this huge storm the comm center went down. Then west side went back up in some capacity but east side was down. That meant no fire, rescue, sheriff or pd dispatching for the entire east side of a county. There was some half-a$$ comms over a west frequency but not really workable.

They couldn't get anyone to get to the back up comm center. They tried sworn personnel but all were tied up and couldn't go.

The cell phones every seven year old has to do the job with had went down too for the provider they used. In what I guess was another cost saving measure they went with the least and not the best. The few and I do mean few personnel who had Verizon as personal cell phones were alright but most everybody was SOL for cell phone use. As a side note, the local provider they use generally goes down when the crap hits.

So the east side communications capability was down, they could get no one to their back-up emergency comm center, the cell phones were down and they were generally screwed for an entire large area of the county.

As to CB, that's a joke. Assuming there was someone to monitor it which is a big IF what could it do. Someone calls in they need paramedics and that mystery monitor gets the call and calls 911 how do they then dispatch it since their radio system for the east side is down? The comm center doesn't even monitor stuff they are supposed to out here much less something like a CB.

Keep in mind also that the east side repeaters were fully functional but the comm center due to crap systems couldn't access them.

So yes I can see a myriad of possibilities of how amateur radio could help in that real life scenario. That is especially true of any amateurs who were out near the back-up comm center. This is of course entirely predicated on that help being wanted, those amateurs being trained adequately and the help being requested and authorized. Most radios can be programmed on the fly as you put it and others you can program via pc in moments. You can also set up channels and have them programmed ahead of time if there is a legitimate reason for doing so. So how would I get on their channel? I'd just input it and set the pl. Take me less than 45 seconds. I could have easily been up and talking on their east side channel relaying to and from them to units in the field who were without communication. I also have the power to cover most if not all the east side on simplex only if the repeater had went down which in this case it never did.

You keep going on about illegality. I'm kind of confused about that. Most equipment I've found comes capable or is easily modified to operate on a wide range of frequencies. I've had to modify two of my radios while the rest come that way. Either way there is nothing illegal about any of them. Some are even part 90 certified. For instance they make a radio that is part 90 and covers 134-174mhz and 400-520mhz. Its capable of transmitting anywhere in that spectrum. Now where the problem can come in is not being on one of those frequencies but transmitting without being authorized to do so on those frequencies. Transmitting without authorization is illegal except under extremely stringent narrow conditions.

I am very diligent to make sure that I keep any and all frequencies which I may program into the radio that are not amateur frequencies set to receive only or have the transmit frequencies set to a permissible frequency in case of hitting the PTT by accident. That way I never run the risk of transmitting where I'm not supposed to.

The other thing is you keep making nasty comments about everyone interested or providing this assistance as being some "Ricky Rescue" type person. Maybe some are, I don't know. I don't think all or maybe even most are. For me I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt. Most of the people replying on here seem to be the same. I'd get off that entire attitude if I were you. It's insulting and uncalled for entirely.

Finally your snipes at amateur radio never being used and being totally unnecessary are easily countered with something called "Facts" which you said you want.

Even I know and have known for many, many years that amateur radio has played an important role many times in emergencies. I'm talking a very large role in a lot of instances. This is common knowledge as a matter of fact. I have to wonder if you're not just trying to bait people with your comments.

Here is an excellent video about it. Its hosted by a gentleman named Walter Cronkite. If your'e old enough to remember him there is no need to explain who he is. If you're not........well.....

He is also KB2GSD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z9136_Nhh4

 

[kayn1n32008]

All this coming from a guy that claims to hold general...

General

What ever... Some people just need to be downers on everything.

I can tell you that amateur radio passed traffic for Alberta Health, between our provincial ops centre, and the hospital in High River, for 10+ hrs after landlines failed last year during the flooding in southern Alberta... Something CB could have NEVER done(300km distance)


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[kayn1n32008]

A lot easier to attack a person than a fact.

All I see you doing is trying to be a Debbie downer.

Explain how your radio is going to communicate with emergency services.

My radios are NOT going to be used on PS freqs, not now, not ever. How ever I will communicate with other amateur radio operators to pass what ever traffic my served agencies want me to pass... On AMATEUR RADIO FREQUENCIES...What part of that do you not understand???

Tell me about the time you or anybody you know was asked to provide emergency communications.

June 2013. During the flooding across wide parts of southern Alberta.

As far as I know it hasn't happened.

Well what ever buddy... It happened. If you choose to keep your head buried in the sand then so be it.

Our Nation has had many natural disasters.

So has my nation. Comes with living on planet earth.

tell me about how Amateur Radio was called in to save the day.

We did not 'save the day' but I can tell you that the agencies we passed traffic for really really appreciated that we were there.

Just about everyone over the age of 7 carries a radio. It is called a cell phone.

How's about you pull your head out of your azz... What is the first point of failure during a disaster??? Cellular, then landline phone... So what if every 7year old has a cell phone... It will probably not do them an inch of good 1hr after the SHTF.

Not a big deal.

Nope sure is not a big deal.

Tell me what you can do that someone with a cb radio can not do in an emergency.

Where do you want me to start??? Talk 300km, at ANY time, with nothing more than a 4w portable... Just for starters...


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[Ghstwolf62]

Funny thing Kayn1n32008 that he talks about it like he does. He says there is never a use for amateur radio or any case when anybody wants them. But one time when most of the radio system went down and it was going to be down for a couple of days the county and radio shop for them actually was looking to put them on the local amateur repeater frequency. The amateur channel had great coverage and was usually up when their system went down.

In this case that particular storm was so bad that it knocked the amateur repeater off the air as well.

But I guess no agency ever looks to amateur radio for anything.....

 

[kayn1n32008]

Funny thing Kayn1n32008 that he talks about it like he does. He says there is never a use for amateur radio or any case when anybody wants them. But one time when most of the radio system went down and it was going to be down for a couple of days the county and radio shop for them actually was looking to put them on the local amateur repeater frequency. The amateur channel had great coverage and was usually up when their system went down.

In this case that particular storm was so bad that it knocked the amateur repeater off the air as well.

But I guess no agency ever looks to amateur radio for anything.....

AHS thanked us for what we did for them last year... Some folks are just bitter... Probably some one that got declined ARES membership... For not being of the correct personality type for that kind of thing... Ya know the mouth breathing type...


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[Ghstwolf62]

AHS thanked us for what we did for them last year... Some folks are just bitter... Probably some one that got declined ARES membership... For not being of the correct personality type for that kind of thing... Ya know the mouth breathing type...


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That would certainly explain a great deal.

 

[iamhere300]

It is not MY program. People far more qualified than me were the leaders and they remain so I just complete the required training, and do what the puiblic safety leaders tell me to do. Then I go home.

Yeah, my comment was a general comment, I was not pointing specifically at you or anyone else.

 

[elk2370bruce]

AHS thanked us for what we did for them last year... Some folks are just bitter... Probably some one that got declined ARES membership... For not being of the correct personality type for that kind of thing... Ya know the mouth breathing type...


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Oh! So you've met DannyB1954. I'm glad he's not a member of our group. Old curmudgeons don't last long - especially if they are reading/research handicapped.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Oh! So you've met DannyB1954. I'm glad he's not a member of our group. Old curmudgeons don't last long - especially if they are reading/research handicapped.

We have a couple here... Thankfully they are NOT involved... They just tend to peanut gallery lots.


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[WB4CS]

Funny thing Kayn1n32008 that he talks about it like he does. He says there is never a use for amateur radio or any case when anybody wants them. But one time when most of the radio system went down and it was going to be down for a couple of days the county and radio shop for them actually was looking to put them on the local amateur repeater frequency. The amateur channel had great coverage and was usually up when their system went down.

In this case that particular storm was so bad that it knocked the amateur repeater off the air as well.

But I guess no agency ever looks to amateur radio for anything.....

I'm not sure what "system" you're referring to, but unless the users of that public service system were all licensed amateur radio operators, they should NOT be placed on the local amateur radio repeater.

Police/Fire/EMS/etc. departments cannot legally commandeer or take over amateur radio frequencies or systems. Their Part 90 license does not allow the use of amateur radio frequencies.

Now, it's certainly possible for licensed amateur radio operators to assist public service departments with relaying messages, but I'd even question the legality of ham radio operators becoming dispatchers and relaying 911 calls over amateur radio to hams riding along with police officers or in EMT trucks.

 

[DaveNF2G]

A "radio shop" without its own licensed frequencies is not suitable to service public safety entities, IMO.

 

[FyrLieut24]

Maybe I am bias...but new technology is based on old technology. As a dispatcher I am working learning what I need so I can get my amature license. I talk on a radio for a living, and for 10 years prior to that I was a first responder....people who depend on radios to work. The difference is the radios that I used then and use now requre power to operate, and a backup power generator will only work for so long. Dont get me wrong, the radios that I use daily have a great reach, but without being able to jump repeaters they dont go very far. As a "professional" I see the amature/ham guys as the backup that I need to keep my people safe and to be able to allow them to do their jobs...its just my agency overlooks the old technology. Used to have CBs in all of the Crown Vics, the new Chargers dont have them installed. The dispatch area used to monitor Channel 9 on the CBs, they are not even in the dispatch consoles anymore. When SHTF scenarios come to be, the old technology is what will keep emergency responders together.

 

[DannyB1954]

Instead of debating facts some people just attack the character of others. Just shows that amateur radio has it's share of jerks. If you do not buy into their make believe world, you have a character defect.

When a wise man argues with a fool, he becomes one. This is my last post on this thread. Enjoy your dream.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

I'm not sure what "system" you're referring to, but unless the users of that public service system were all licensed amateur radio operators, they should NOT be placed on the local amateur radio repeater.

Police/Fire/EMS/etc. departments cannot legally commandeer or take over amateur radio frequencies or systems. Their Part 90 license does not allow the use of amateur radio frequencies.

Now, it's certainly possible for licensed amateur radio operators to assist public service departments with relaying messages, but I'd even question the legality of ham radio operators becoming dispatchers and relaying 911 calls over amateur radio to hams riding along with police officers or in EMT trucks.

While I could say some "What ifs" and "Should bes" or maybe some "Why nots" what it comes down to is I don't know a tremendous amount in regards to Amateur radio emergency communications, dispatching for PS, PS interaction or basically anything in this field. I would like to learn though.

As to the the comment I made I didn't know the things you've told me about, but the "System" I was speaking about was Fire/Rescue and Sheriff communications which had mostly went down. I can only speak to the communications I heard at the time from the county and radio shop.

Probably a lot of the things I've said as ideas don't fly due to my lack of knowledge but I am very interested in learning about the subject. I just haven't really found out much. The Races/Ares sites often say different things which are confusing to say the least and don't have a lot of information. I've found the federal online courses which seem to be indicated need to be taken but there is so much from a knowledge and practical standpoint that is not to be found anywhere that it leaves everything up in the air as to what you do and don't do, can do and can't do. I've seen one place that says you can do "A" while another place says you can't do "A" so that is why I posted.

I also look at things from my experience in EMS and other radio use rather than from my short experience as an Amateur which probably results in suggesting a lot of things, or thinking a lot things which I'll find out don't actually apply to the Amateur field.

 

[WB4CS]

The Races/Ares sites often say different things which are confusing to say the least and don't have a lot of information. I've found the federal online courses which seem to be indicated need to be taken but there is so much from a knowledge and practical standpoint that is not to be found anywhere that it leaves everything up in the air as to what you do and don't do, can do and can't do. I've seen one place that says you can do "A" while another place says you can't do "A" so that is why I posted.

And that's probably the biggest problem with ARES/RACES in amateur radio. No across the board structure or knowledge. The ARES/RACES "rules" in one state or completely different than in another state. While some of the groups are ran by experienced and knowledgeable people, some of them are ran by hams that either have a political agenda (IE "I want to be the most important ham in the area) or they are so whackerish that they can't wait to put on their ARES/RACES badge and flashy lights and be a pretend cop.In order to be taken seriously, ARES and RACES needs to be much more structured and professional.

I'm glad to have helped clear up the part about local Fire/EMS/Police not being able to commandeer amateur frequencies and repeaters. While in theory it might sound like a good idea, there's a lot more involved in talking on the radio than just talking on a radio. Licensing and who's allowed to use what spectrum is a very important part of the legality that governs the radio spectrum. Thinking outside of the box to come up with ways to help out during emergencies is a great thing to do, but always be sure to research the legality of your ideas before implementing them.

A good case in point: Our local EMA department puts out weather briefings during severe weather on the local 700 MHz digital trunked system. One of the local hams wanted to rebroadcast the briefings onto the local RACES repeater. He later found out that doing so would violate FCC Part 97 rules and he could have put his ham license in jeopardy by retransmitting signals from public service radio systems to amateur frequencies. While he had a good idea in theory, it wasn't something he could legally do.

There's a lot to learn. Ask questions and do research, and you'll be just fine

 

[millrad]

Ham radio and its place in the emergency services is improving by leaps and bounds. Here in Connecticut, ARES members are allowed to assist public safety only if those hams have completed the requisite NIMS courses and understand the incident command system (ICS), have passed EC-1, have become familiar with Red Cross disaster protocols and have a working familiarity with the CERT Team process.
This should help dispel the old notion of untrained, freelancing overeager radio operators trying to get in the process, and just getting in the way. the message: If you won't take the time to pass some courses and learn structural discipline, don't bother trying to help.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

And that's probably the biggest problem with ARES/RACES in amateur radio. No across the board structure or knowledge. The ARES/RACES "rules" in one state or completely different than in another state. While some of the groups are ran by experienced and knowledgeable people, some of them are ran by hams that either have a political agenda (IE "I want to be the most important ham in the area) or they are so whackerish that they can't wait to put on their ARES/RACES badge and flashy lights and be a pretend cop.In order to be taken seriously, ARES and RACES needs to be much more structured and professional.

I'm glad to have helped clear up the part about local Fire/EMS/Police not being able to commandeer amateur frequencies and repeaters. While in theory it might sound like a good idea, there's a lot more involved in talking on the radio than just talking on a radio. Licensing and who's allowed to use what spectrum is a very important part of the legality that governs the radio spectrum. Thinking outside of the box to come up with ways to help out during emergencies is a great thing to do, but always be sure to research the legality of your ideas before implementing them.

A good case in point: Our local EMA department puts out weather briefings during severe weather on the local 700 MHz digital trunked system. One of the local hams wanted to rebroadcast the briefings onto the local RACES repeater. He later found out that doing so would violate FCC Part 97 rules and he could have put his ham license in jeopardy by retransmitting signals from public service radio systems to amateur frequencies. While he had a good idea in theory, it wasn't something he could legally do.

There's a lot to learn. Ask questions and do research, and you'll be just fine

Thanks. I'll keep plugging away on it. Its kind of sad that people think they have to have some kind of badge, uniform or gun to make them feel important in that kind of emergency situation. I can see the use for it in some situations from having had those but sitting in a comm center somewhere doesn't really sound like more than an ID would be necessary that could be pulled out of your wallet and shown upon request.

Unless all police, fire and medical is completely down you shouldn't be rolling to the scene of anything anyway. Even then you should only go if you can make a significant contribution to the circumstances. (Example if you're an ex-medic and can help the injured) The only time I would think there would be any call for a scene response was if specifically asked to do so. As to wannabes, they should be automatically banned from anything at all no matter how much training they have. Some of the scariest people I encountered were wannabe somethings.

Anyway thanks again.

One thing though, the "Use the amateur repeater" thing was not my idea but overheard comms between the radio shop and the county about the situation and what they had thought of doing but couldn't because the amateur repeater was knocked off the air too. I am not involved in anything currently nor have I ever been in the Amateur community. (Yet at least)