Heard DMR on an FRS channel for the first time Yesterday!

[toastycookies]

That is interesting to note.

See the Grant note: "EF This device may contain functions that are not operational in U.S Territories except as noted in the filing. This grant has extended frequencies as noted in the filing and Section 2.927(b) applies to this authorization."

As a historic aside, I have reviewed the FCC Grant for the Motorola Systems Sabers. They are approved for Part 95 though they also have Securenet DES encryption capability that is also not permitted.

I have seen of late, the FCC rubber stamping anything that gets thrown over the transom. This includes even some cheap Motorola equipment that operates DC to daylight with Grant Note EF.

The FCC is pretty adamant about not approving some multi service radios, yet their OET goes on doing their thing with a rubber stamp. Now there are off shore labs certifying those cheap Chinese radios and the OET doesn't care.

Kenwood has had a very long history of getting all their UHF LMR radios (part 90) accepted as part 95a as well. Every Kenwood UHF radio I have (none which are digital) are both part 90 and 95a type accepted.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Kenwood has had a very long history of getting all their UHF LMR radios (part 90) accepted as part 95a as well. Every Kenwood UHF radio I have (none which are digital) are both part 90 and 95a type accepted.

The TKR 850/8500 repeaters are pretty nice. I worked on a turnpike project in Florida where the vendor installed a couple dozen of them on a voted multi-cast ribbon system. They worked out very well in solving the complex redundant design requirements. It helps that the local shop was knowledgeable as well.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Look closer, none of those emission types permit a digital voice. Digital squelch yes.

Oops, sorry, I just looked again and you are right. My bad.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I use a TK805D for GMRS. There is a P25 addon board option, which I don't have. I don't know whether the installation of the P25 board would affect the radio's Part 95 certification. If it does, then there should be a note to that effect in the actual certification.

 

[N4GIX]

nobody is saying NXDN is legal on GMRS AT ALL!

Okay, I see and conceed your point, although the thread topic is "DMR on GMRS," and by extension the use of any digital mode on GMRS.

I did note with some interest that the original filing from 2007 was for a conventional UHF transceiver, and was later amended in 2013 to include NXDN.

 

[902]

Then add the Repeater on 467 with a 462 input :roll:

Yeaaah... The repeater that transmits on 462.700 and receives on 467.725 with another repeater somewhere in the middle which receives on 462.700 and transmits on 467.725, and the third repeater far away which receives on 467.725 and transmits on 462.700. For those times you look at the spectrum analyzer and see a bump come up just after another and you wonder, "What the heck is going on here?"

 

[Evgeni]

There is somebody in the Poconos or just across the Delaware River operating a digtal repeater on GMRS.

 

[902]

There is somebody in the Poconos or just across the Delaware River operating a digtal repeater on GMRS.

Someone in NYC used to operate a Motorola Digital Voice Privacy encrypted repeater on GMRS back in the early 90s.

Doesn't necessarily make it right, but It happens. People usually lose interest on their own, or life circumstances take them away from their projects.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I made a comment on Facebook recently about amateur repeater operators that seems to apply with equal force to GMRS repeater owners.

There are two kinds of repeater owner: 1) The ones who put up repeaters so others can communicate. 2) The ones who put up repeaters so they can keep others from using them.

 

[N4KVE]

I made a comment on Facebook recently about amateur repeater operators that seems to apply with equal force to GMRS repeater owners.

There are two kinds of repeater owner: 1) The ones who put up repeaters so others can communicate. 2) The ones who put up repeaters so they can keep others from using them.

And then there's the guys put up a GMRS repeater because their wives just can not get their ham ticket. But as a matter of rule, if someone has a GMRS license thay can not just roll into a town while on vacation, & use someone's GMRS repeater. They should contact the repeater owner before getting there to arrange permission before using it.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Setting aside the sexism for a moment, you used the word "rule" when talking about getting permission. There is no rule requiring that. However, as a practical matter, it is easier to gain access to a repeater when the owner has provided CTCSS/DCS information. It is courteous to ask first, even if your equipment is able to determine the squelch protocol for you.

 

[rescue161]

Don't just start using my GMRS repeater without asking first. It is rude and just smells of an entitlement attitude. If I hear people using it that did not ask for permission first, then I'll just turn it off and they can talk simplex.

I have four repeaters and everyone is free to use them. The three ham repeaters are open for all licensed hams without asking permission.

 

[froggy777]

Well I just spent 2 weeks in Charlotte at the race track. I heard DMR and P25 on both FRS and GMRS. My 462.650 was completely useless as someone was on the 467.650 on a digital format. I got three or 4 hits on my scanner that showed P25 and programmed my APX but never heard anyone else on it.

I think as other we are just starting to see all this and more is to come. Ironically before i left for vacation I had a friend stop by with a new to him ebay XTS portable. CH1-16 were FRS NAC 293. At least he was smart enough to know this was wrong and asked I reprogram to ham stuff.

honestly, im shocked you got anything to work at the speedway, the charlotte metro area(ham club member here) is stupid heavy between state/local p25, legacy vhf for fire/medic, 800mhz digital for meck/cabarrus county, the concord regional airport (race weeks they stack freqs over there for ramp handling). DHS/FBI and "other" agency radios have been eating the life out of the radio spectrum in our region.

on a "good day" my 5w ht with comet sma24 antenna might go 7-8mi, if i goto salisbury i can talk with east at 5w to repeaters upto 25mi out.

 

[prcguy]

I completely disagree with that, a GMRS repeater is a considerable investment in equipment and site fees and many people spend the money for their personal use only. Anyone with a GMRS license can put up a repeater but its private property unless the owner gives permission to use his equipment. There is no difference between someone finding and using your home wireless internet as there is in using someones GMRS repeater without permission.

An amateur repeater is different and its assumed an amateur repeater is available for everyone's use unless the owner says no. Amateur radio is a hobby and GMRS is not.
prcguy

I made a comment on Facebook recently about amateur repeater operators that seems to apply with equal force to GMRS repeater owners.

There are two kinds of repeater owner: 1) The ones who put up repeaters so others can communicate. 2) The ones who put up repeaters so they can keep others from using them.

 

[gewecke]

I completely disagree with that, a GMRS repeater is a considerable investment in equipment and site fees and many people spend the money for their personal use only. Anyone with a GMRS license can put up a repeater but its private property unless the owner gives permission to use his equipment. There is no difference between someone finding and using your home wireless internet as there is in using someones GMRS repeater without permission.

An amateur repeater is different and its assumed an amateur repeater is available for everyone's use unless the owner says no. Amateur radio is a hobby and GMRS is not.
prcguy

Gmrs is INDEED a hobby! How is a Gmrs repeater not a hobby from a 2 meter or 70cm machine?? Amateur radio repeaters can be privately owned and operated, as is Gmrs machines are too. The licensee who owns & maintains that equipment is responsible for its upkeep and licensing. He/she can deny access to its use by unlicensed or illegal use at will. The only real difference here is that Gmrs operators pay a imposed fee to be licensed, while Amateur operators are required to Earn theirs. No one twists our arms to partake in this activity, and the only real difference here is one has priviledges earned and the other has priviledges paid for. This topic is not that complex. . 73, n9zas

 

[Thunderknight]

Setting aside the sexism for a moment, you used the word "rule" when talking about getting permission. There is no rule requiring that.

47 CFR 95.33 (a)(4) would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

47 CFR 95.33 (a)(4) would seem to indicate otherwise.

Thanks!

 

[prcguy]

At one time Part 95 rules which cover GMRS specifically mentioned the service is for "personal or business use" and not for hobby use. I've not read the rules completely through in awhile to see how its worded, but GMRS and its predecessor Class A CB was never intended for hobby use.

I was first licensed for Class A CB then GMRS around 38yrs ago and had to fill out the FCC long forms for my repeaters noting LAT/LON, height above sea level, antenna height, system diagrams, FAA statements, etc. Now anyone can toss up a repeater for GMRS, but its still private owned equipment and nobody is entitled to use it without the owners permission.
prcguy

Gmrs is INDEED a hobby! How is a Gmrs repeater not a hobby from a 2 meter or 70cm machine?? Amateur radio repeaters can be privately owned and operated, as is Gmrs machines are too. The licensee who owns & maintains that equipment is responsible for its upkeep and licensing. He/she can deny access to its use by unlicensed or illegal use at will. The only real difference here is that Gmrs operators pay a imposed fee to be licensed, while Amateur operators are required to Earn theirs. No one twists our arms to partake in this activity, and the only real difference here is one has priviledges earned and the other has priviledges paid for. This topic is not that complex. . 73, n9zas

 

[gewecke]

At one time Part 95 rules which cover GMRS specifically mentioned the service is for "personal or business use" and not for hobby use. I've not read the rules completely through in awhile to see how its worded, but GMRS and its predecessor Class A CB was never intended for hobby use.
prcguy

Very true! But in recent years sice the popularity of LMR, LTE, and now DMR, it seems that with the rare exception of a few businesses left over still using Gmrs, is all alone for the hobbyists. Even then there are many veteran radio hobbyists who aren't aware yet that Gmrs is available to them. Its doubtful at this point that Gmrs will go away so it still remains to be a viable option for those who don't prefer ham or Murs. 73, n9zas

 

[Hatchett]

GMRS…..A hobby? ........
Hm…….. Nor really……..

It does not really fit any classifications very well. To understand why, you have to understand the history behind the service, and why it came into being.

In the years before Cellular technology came out, you had business radio, public service, and ham radio. One for people conducting business related activities. One for first responders, and one for radio hobbyist.

There is a problem with that system though. …….There was a group of people, relatively wealthy people, that wanted to use radio to help conduct family related activities. The head of the family seen the obvious benefits of using radio to coordinate their daily activities. The problem was they did not fit any of the three prestated categories.

That is what the class A, B, and C citizens band radio services were created for. Along with the rest of the rank and file US citizens, and small businesses. As time went on, the FCC seen that there was a wider demand for such “Non professional” radio services. One of the major stumbling blocks was equipment cost. That is why they recreated the CB radio services into it’s modern 27Mhz form. That shift in frequency band was primarily intended to reduce equipment cost to make the service “more available” to the rank and file US citizen.

That redesign of the CB radio service took care of the rank and file CB radio user. And it opened up a good chunk of UHF spectrum for reframing into new services. But that left one critical group of people out of the loop.

That “left out” group was the wealthy families that wanted to use radio to conduct their family activities and wanted to be able to use “more advanced” radio infrastructure to support that communications than the 27 Mhz CB service allowed. They wanted to use equipment that is normally “out of the reach” of most normal people. Equipment that is normally reserved for “business” operations.

That is the gap that the GMRS service was created to fill. That is why the GMRS licensing and “privilege to use” rules are what they are. The rules make very little logical sense for a normal radio service, unless you take into account the gap GMRS was designed for. The “well off” head of the house would pay for a license, and he would have the “right” to use that license to allow all his “friends and relatives” to operate on his radio system.

That way, his friends and family could have direct communications to him, or his personal assistants no mater where they went in their daily travels across the city. And if they ever needed help, they could summon all the family resources from the comfort of their driver’s seat, without having to take the risk and try to find a payphone, or hitch a ride to get help, if their car broke down.

That is why GMRS was left in the UHF spectrum. The higher cost of UHF equipment was a “non issue” to the people that the service was designed for. The wealthy upper crust.

That is also why GMRS forbids business use, because the FCC did not want the service competing with LMR. It was strictly intended for “non business” users that wanted to use more advanced infrastructure than the normal rank and file “non business user” could afford or would normally use. Yet did not qualify for a business licenses because they were wanting to use the “business class radio system” to keep track of their family activity.

When cell phones came out, that pretty much rendered the whole GMRS radio service redundant. That is why you have seen the drastic drop off in the service over the years. The only ones that remained were the ones that enjoyed the radio hobby related aspect that it afforded the licensee. Even thought the hobby related aspect was not intended.

Even though there is no technical, or logical reason for it’s continued existence, it still has it’s die hard supporters that like it because it allows them to pull their friends into their little field of enjoyment (hobby) without forcing them to force their friends through the licensing routine, which would normally result form them getting into a true hobby related radio service otherwise called Amateur radio.


So, it’s a redundant, non hobby service that only exists today because of it’s hobby related pull.

And because of it’s long history as being a radio service for the upper crust, some of it’s users still generally have an entitlement attitude.
(Which is sometimes obvious on this forum.)