help, again...UHF trunking question

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kma371

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when i download the control channel (406.1625 in this case)...
i get the following for frequencies.

v0x07f ,7f,ffff,1
v0x09c ,9c,ffff,3
v0x0bd ,bd,ffff,1
v0x0cf ,cf,ffff,1
d 406.1625,189,ffff,0
a 0x199 ,199,ffff,0
v0x1fb ,1fb,ffff,5
v0x218 ,218,ffff,12
v0x239 ,239,ffff,7
v0x24b ,24b,ffff,8

i was about to figure out one, because that was the one i was listening to but how do i convert "0x239" or "0x24b" into frequencies??? i don't get it.
:(
 

kma371

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near the end...i meant to say "i was only able to figure out one and that was because it was the one i was listening to (control channel)"
 

WayneH

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That's the DOE's Lawrence Livemore Lab system. Look for it in the database. Base 406, spacing 12.5. Put the lowest Rx hex with the lowest Tx hex and do it sequentially.

System ID 5434 right?

-Wayne
 

kma371

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I see it in the database, but I want to figure out how to convert it to a frequency. How does "0x24b" to equal a frequency?

I just started using trunker so please use the most simplest terms on how to do it.
 

WayneH

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Ok, sorry about that.

For VHF and UHF systems you have a base frequency and a spacing (5.0, 6.25, 12.5kHz, etc). Any system in these bands has a table which is programmed in both fixed and mobile equipment to provide the values to calculate operating freqencies.

To perform the calculation you need to at least know one frequency and a hex id which the system uses to represent that freq. First thing....you take the hex id and convert it to decimal (via Windows calculater). You then multiple the spacing in the MHz range (i.e., 12.5 is 0.0125) and multiply it by the now channel decimal id. You then subtract the frequency from the value returned. Whatever value you are given will be used to apply against the other hex/decimal ids to derive a frequency. Here's an example:

What we know: $189 = 406.1625
$189 converted to decimal is 393
(393*0.0125) - 406.1625 = 401.25 (401.25 is the common value)

Take a hex id we don't know the freq for and apply the above plugging in what we do know...
$1FB = 507
(507*0.0125) + 401.25 = 407.5875
Therefore $1FB = 407.5875

Simply put, every increment from $17C is the spacing increment of the frequency. If your combo is 406 (Base = $17C) and 12.5, then $17D is 406.0125, $17E is 406.0250, $17F is 406.0375, and so on.

Now, there is a catch. The technique I referred to above, and the style LLNL uses, is one that uses only one base freq and spacing. With these types of systems you can have up three different ranges which means you can have three different base freqs with their own independent spacing. With a system which only uses one range you can have available to use up to 380 frequencies. If you want or need another frequency range you must have each range equal, together, 380. So one range could be 180 and another 200 frequencies. You have to have a combination of base freq and spacing to fulfill the ranges without breaking the rules.

The first range (or base freq) will always start with a hex id of $17C. Anytime you ever see $17C used and can figure it out you have your base freq for the first (and possibly only range). Any hex id below $17C is used as mobile transmit and isn't important enough to calculate. It's only needed to pair up with the mobile receive within Trunker so that radio ids can be associated with their group call.

So in theory you could do 406MHz to 407.5000 with a 25kHz spacing and have another range of 410 to 411 with a spacing of 12.5kHz. One of the rules is that any range cannot start or end within another. Soif we used 406 to 408, a second range could not have a base freq of 407. It would have to be higher than 408.

I've written more on this subject and have it available at my website. In addition is a spreadsheet to help figure these systems out. It requires a bit of knowledge on these systems beforehand but it allows you to calculate just about anything needed. The URL is http://tricari.home.attbi.com/download.html.

Btw, Travis AFB is an example of a system which uses two ranges. You can do a search within the forums to read more about it.

-Wayne
 

kma371

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OK! Got it! Now another question regarding 800Mhz trunking channels.

For example. BART's system.

Two lines I can't figure out of my 00Asys file:

v0x000 ,0,ffff,83
v0x01c ,1c,ffff,35

I can't enter a 0X01c or 0X000 as a hex number. How do I convert that?
 

WayneH

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I can't recall what the 0x000 means but the 0x01C means someone tried to make a call to a group that was busy. I think there was discussion on these EDACS codes in another thread. Try the search and if you can't I'll dig them up (or someone else may).

Valid LCNs are 0x001 to 0x019 IIRC. Anything else is a message for the radio about something it tried to do.

-Wayne
 

rescue161

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Okay, I'm still having a HARD time figuring out UHF trunking. It would be easier if I had a UHF low system to listen to, but all that is here is one in the 460/470 range. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the TX frequencies higher in these systems as compared to the UHF low systems? If that's true, then how do I figure out the inputs and outputs here? I really don't need the inputs, but I need to weed out what I think are inputs that keep showing up on T4WIN. Here is the data that I have so far:

380 462.125
390 462.375 Control
397 462.550 Control
404 462.725 Control
410 462.875 Control
576 467.025
589 467.350
619 468.100
776 472.025
779 472.100
784 472.225
811 472.900
960 476.625

What I'm thinking is that the 472.xxx frequencies are inputs. It would help if I was closer to the system as some days it's 100% and others I can't get anything, not even a peep. I have an antenna up 25 feet with Heliax hardline running into a Pro-2006, so I know it's not the setup here. I think the system is just too far away. Today is one of those 100% days so I'm trying to get as much down as I can. I'm not even real sure if I have all of the frequencies or not. I was going to submit this system to Lindsay, but there wasn't a spot for Spain. I don't really know where it is either, so the data wouldn't be the best. Help from Spain.

Scott
 

mikey60

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rescue161 said:
380 462.125
390 426.375 Control
397 426.550 Control
404 462.725 Control
410 462.875 Control
576 467.025
589 467.350
619 468.100
776 472.025
779 472.100
784 472.225
811 472.900
960 476.625

Based on the information provided, and assuming that the two frequencies listed as 426.xxx are typos, this system has a single table as follows:

Base: 462.125
Spacing/Step: 25Khz
Offset: 380

I didn't check every frequency, but to do that, here's the formula:

((Channel - 380) * Spacing) + Base = Frequency

Example for Channel 960

((960-380) * .025) + 462.125
(580 * .025) + 462.125
14.5 + 462.125
=476.625


Mike
 

rescue161

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Yeah, I corrected those two...lol I was typing too fast.

I thought there were only 380 possible channels, is that right? That's what led me to believe that the channels above 619 (468.100) were TX (input).
 

mikey60

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rescue161 said:
Yeah, I corrected those two...lol I was typing too fast.

I thought there were only 380 possible channels, is that right? That's what led me to believe that the channels above 619 (468.100) were TX (input).

That was my understanding, but I've seen others with higher channel numbers.

Mike
 

rescue161

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Do the civilian systems like these have standard splits for the tx/rx channels? I mean are the inputs 5 MHz above the RX freqs like in a standard UHF repeater, or are they like the govt. trunking systems and have crazy splits?
 

DaveH

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Are you guys sure about some of these channel numbers? The way I undertand (and have observed) is that Moto VHF/UHF systems have two groups of channels, 0-379 for system inputs, and 380-759 for outputs. Each group is broken down into 3 ranges.


Dave
 

SCPD

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rescue161 said:
I really don't need the inputs, but I need to weed out what I think are inputs that keep showing up on T4WIN. Here is the data that I have so far:

The channel numbers above 759 are in error. T4Win shouldn't be (but is) reporting these.

-rick
 

rescue161

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The numbers above are taken off of the T4WIN screen. I am thinking that the ones above 619 are inputs. I just got another one at "791 (472.400)".

What makes me think that they are the inputs is because if they are the outputs, then the inputs for those would be too high. Does that make sense?

BTW, the system is somewhere in the southern part of Spain.
 

rescue161

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For the most part, when I see the "above 759" channels active, it is labeled as "group". Could these be the "dispatchers" talking on the inputs? I hate to say it, but I don't have a clue when it comes to spanish, so listening to the talk groups is out...lol
 

rescue161

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rfmobile said:
The channel numbers above 759 are in error. T4Win shouldn't be (but is) reporting these.

-rick

Does T4WIN usually do this when a system is on the outer fringes of the coverage area? Or is this a "special" European system? Was I right about the inputs being higher than the outputs on the 460 systems?
 

SCPD

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rescue161 said:
Does T4WIN usually do this when a system is on the outer fringes of the coverage area? Or is this a "special" European system? Was I right about the inputs being higher than the outputs on the 460 systems?

It's particularly bad on VHF/UHF systems. No ... the input channel numbers are numerically lower than the output channel numbers ... but that doesn't mean the repeater input frequencies are lower than the repeater output frequencies. The input channels will use a different base frequency for their band plan.

If you can recording the control channel (16 bit mono at 44.1khz) and make it available for me to download ... I can test it against the newer code to make sure this problem does not occur.

-rick
 

rescue161

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How long of a recording do you need?
Let me know what the length needs to be and I'll try my best.
 
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