Help Choosing Antenna

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scannerowner

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Hi all,

I have a BCD396XT that I'm wanting to upgrade a portable antenna to use compared to my stock antenna. I'm hoping to use it for MOSWIN. I'm currently 10.5 miles away from the nearest site and can barely get a signal if anything. I can get a solid signal when I go East of my location about 5-7 miles. The South West side of the tower seems to have the worst reception. For those of you that don't know, MOSWIN is a VHF P25 Trunked System in MO.

I DO have a lot of other towers that may be causing interference issues near me, so not sure if it would get worse if I upgrade. I'm thinking either a RS Telescoping Antenna (20-006) or a WSMA-881 Super Gainer SMA Portable Antenna from scanner master. Also would like any input for a different portable antenna to use that is fairly cheap. $10- $50 range.

Thanks!
 

benbenrf

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Scannerowner

Your opening sentence to paragraph 2 sums it up quite well - I would tend to agree with what you have said, that improving receive gain overall (by way of a better or higher antenna) is just going to raise the level of all the other tower communications (in this case "noise") around you by the same degree i.e. it ain't going to help, there will be no improvement to the channel specific signal SNR.

The only real way to resolve the problem is to use a directional antenna, or, if you use an omni-directional antenna, establish what the exact Tx frequency is of this distant tower you want to listen in to, and try find a band-pass filter that is bang on that frequency & which has the required band-pass band width, which you can then switch in and out of the coax circuit as and when you wish to listen to that tower. That should the job.

Thats the problem in lay-man terms, to take the subject to the next tech level requires acknowledging that SNR is not really an accurate way to define noise or interference in digital comm's. For digital modulated and encoded com’s one needs to know the C/N ratio (carrier to noise ratio), which, in the case of P25 should be no more than around 5% BER (bit error rate) i.e. overall noise shouldn’t cause your receiver to “loose” any more than around 5% of the bits that make up the data stream.

To put this into context, we revert back to analogue comm's for a moment, which folk are more familiar with: in an analogue receiver whose spec’s are based around the commonly used trade figure of 12dB SINAD (the majority of scanners/receivers tend to use 12dB SINAD), this would equate to a signal level of around 12db – 13dB above SINAD. In other words, to demodulate and recover pretty good audio from an analogue transmission the received signal should be around 12dB above overall noise (and this includes receiver generated noise).

With respect to a P25 type transmission, to keep within the 5% BER figure requires a signal level which should be around 5dB -6dB above overall noise (again, receiver generated noise included). However, in reality as it has turned out, P25 users have found that a lower BER tends to be required - not exceeding around 2.5% turns out to be ideal when fading is brought into the equation. And the reason for this difference lies in the fact that when the P25 standards were defined no one remembered to keep in mind the impact voice compression (which all digital audio comm's implement) would impart on overall performance.

Just as each MPEG2 audio/video hardware manufacturer is free to adopt whatever video or voice encoder they wish to use, so long as it complies with the overall MPEG2 standard, so to can P25 equipment manufacturers adopt whatever voice encoder they want, so long as it complies with the P25 standard.

Like different MPEG2 encoders, different P25 encoders adopt different sampling rates and different bit rates and as we all know, the higher the sampling rate and the higher the bit rate, the more important "noise" becomes ... see where this is going?

One of the most common P25 voice encoders turns out to be the IMBE vocoder - just so happens that it's well adapted for P25 use, but it requires a +/- 2.5% BER!!

Quite why the issue of variability between different encoders was not given the consideration that it required in the P25 design process is an ongoing dispute and one of the ongoing teething problems in P25 comm's. In time it will all get sorted out.

Anyhow, that is a basic tech level insight to the problem you are having to overcome to recover audio from this tower: between signal strength and overall noise your receiver is struggling to recover the required +/- 97.5% of the bits required to demodulate & decode the received rf signal and reconstruct the analogue audio content. Its that simple!

Hope it all helps.
 
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scannerowner

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Thanks guys, I have thought about the Diamond SRH77CA also, but kinda want an all band one. Do I even attempt to buy the super gainer, would it be worth it? I'm also thinking a RS 20-551 for my stationary scanner.
 

benbenrf

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Thanks guys, I have thought about the Diamond SRH77CA also, but kinda want an all band one. Do I even attempt to buy the super gainer, would it be worth it? I'm also thinking a RS 20-551 for my stationary scanner.

Scannerowner

I don't think the brand name or manufacturer matters to much here, so long it's not from some untraceable Far East or North Korean garage corporation! What will be important is the ability to get from the manufacturer (and all-the-better if the info is availible from theirs or the retailer website) relivant and accurate performance data.

High on this list is going to be the Gain of course, but don't view Gain simply from a "higher is better" perspective. Gain tells you something about the radiation pattern of an antenna e.g. in a 5/8th's type omni-directional antenna the rad pattern tends be narrow & orientated towards the horizon - and that's ideal beam-width & coverage to be to get the best receive performance out of whatever antenna type you choose i.e. nice and tight and leveled out towards the horizon.

Problem of course is that there is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to antenna performance - and the comparitively high gain that a 5/8th's antenna offers, it's only on tap because 5/8th's type antenna's are frequency or band specificaly, not all-band/broad-band! So, no good.

But radiation pattern is no less important when it comes to all-band [omni-directional] type antennas. Below is a list of all-band antenna options you can choose from, many of which demonstrate different radiation patterns and Gain characteristics.

- Discone type & inverted discone type (very popular)

- Conical monopole type

- Coaxial dipole type

- Planar monopole type

- Broadband bicone type

- Scantenna type (very popular)

There are so many manufacturers of these designs, who make them for a huge variety of bandwidths and applications, so I am reluctant to name a manufacturer. They all have advantages and disadvantages e.g. some designs provide complete/100% hemispherical coverage, some provide above & below horizon beam widths, some provide sky coverage, some can be set up to offer circular polarisation, or horizontal or just vertical - obviously vertical is going to be your most important polarisation, but circular can offer advantages in some cases as well.

In short there are loads of options to choose from ......... don't restrict your options to just discone and Scantenna type antennas.
 

scannerowner

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Ok thanks. Would it help if I told you more about the site I'm listening to? The site is about 10.5 driving miles away from my location and about 8 miles diagonally from me, my stock antenna on the 996T shows about 3 bars signal, whereas a site 15-20 driving miles or more from me has full signal with the 996T. Oddly, the site I'm wanting to get has a 360 degree beamwidth and the antenna is pretty high up, I've had the idea the tower is shading the signal towards me. I'm just needing something that will receive it better than my stock antenna on my 396XT where it shows up as nothing unless I have the scanner raised up a little bit. I'm not sure why my signal is at nearly zero. I do pick up some of the static from the control channel, but nothing much more than that.
 

benbenrf

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It’s very unlikely that a nearer tower is shading you from a further one – even if the nearer tower is directly between you and the further tower. The only time this would be remotely possible (note: I said remotely possible) is if you were located right up against the nearer tower – literally within yards – and even then the further tower would have to be literally yards behind that one. This is all about a phenomena known as “fresnel zoning” , an introduction to which can be found on the following Wiki page

Fresnel zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As to why you are able to receive a better signal from a tower/antenna located further from you, could be down to any one of a bunch of reasons, and with great respect, if I was to go through them all with so that you both knew what the possible problems were and understood enough about each to enable elimination one by one, I’d be here all night – so lets try jump start this problem:

- first thing (as stupid as it may sound) – are you certain that the signal you are tuned into is indeed been transmitted from the nearer tower (what is the evidence that confirms this)?

- try this – is you drive to within a mile or so of the nearer antenna with your gear, and attempt to tune in and receive a transmission, what do you now hear, and how many bars are displayed on your receiver?

- have you ever managed to find any location suing your current hardware that enables you to receive transmissions from the nearer tower?

- what antenna are you using?

- this is a MOSWIN transmission is it not?

- what type of antenna is on the tower (if you are not sure provide the tower ID or GPS position and I’ll go look it up on the net)?
 

scannerowner

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I tested with the stock antenna, and when I was next to the transmitter it was solid. I compare with the site number listed in the database. Also heard somewhere, they may have the site's power turned low, for now atleast. I don't know how to tell if the tower is on low power or not. When driving next to it with the antenna off, I got 3 bars. So not sure if that means it's running at about half power or what?!
 
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