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HELP NEEDED: Making a Counter Encryption Argument

mmckenna

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Ha, ya, that sounds right! I’m glad people are shooting holes in this. I just moved here at the end of last year so I certainly don’t know the answer, I was just asking the question! It may be that while citizens are allowed to audit the communications, it may require a delayed broadcast via a different medium to fulfill that obligation.
Your's were decent question. They've just been asked before.

It's a complex subject and there are no easy answers.
 

Baker845

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I'm not surprised that Orange county hasn't been reprogrammed. There always excuses into why. My guess is the radio's don't have over the air programming active. That would make it easier to program all radio's . All the forums I read about the programming It should have been done.
 

marcotor

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All the forums I read about the programming It should have been done.
Not an excuse, just a fact. There are over 25 open positions in the radio shop at OCComms. Sounds like you are an expert, perhaps you could offer your talents and show then what they are doing wrong. Can you tell me which forums those are? I'd like to correct the incredible misinformation that is apparently out there, since I actually *live* in Orange County ;)
 

buddrousa

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It is a money issue
1 OTA Programming cost per radio.
2 Bandwidth from site to site is not cheap.
 

Baker845

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marcotor,

Here is link to post about it.

I don't live in Cali. My understanding when county radio shop programs radio's they have of course program with interop zones ect, but one of the zone which is most of the time the second zone or last zone, that zone they would program all talk groups with out Encyption or program one of radio's switches to turn off encyption. I don't know why Orange county didn't have encypted zone all ready programmed or aka fall back zone or have switch programmed to turn it off. If I was programming there radio's I would have.
 
Last edited:

William2910

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This is pretty accurate. I have seen a couple places where the normal local government management bodies including their wanna be DA local small time attorney have access to secure active LE operations 24/7. This has proven to be issue. Why we don't allow that agency to have our secure keys in their equipment keeping our main open. No telling where those radios will end up if they had access to the sensitive stuff. Example is Manager gets access and their director who vouch for xyz and so on for say recreation then he gives one to his buddy he voucher for etc in his dept that takes it home. Definitely a issue. The keyloader is only as good as the admin or techs who control it and tell some NO you're not authorized or needing it and have no reason to. Throw in small place politics you can see how it'll go. Heck there is a city board who are elected who have access on their entities system and couple have questionable backgrounds. No No not with ours you dont.


^^^^ what he said.

There is a huge false sense of security in employing encryption on routine talk groups. Complacency is the enemy of security.

When you employ encryption, you need to control what radios, users and agencies have your encryption key.

Technically it is simple if you have a pricey Key Management Facility to broadcast the key to all of the authorized radios.

But if you are expanding this beyond the agencies you directly control for purposes of interoperability, the security of the information is subject to the trust you have in those other agencies to vet their people.

Do they allow take home radios? Is a spouse or other family member borrowing the radio?

Is a radio being misused by a nefarious employee?

Are they familiar with security procedures of the host agency?

What about routine use. Is sensitive information leaking over the mobile radio speaker to members of the public?

What if an outside agency decides the solution for interoperability is to console patch your encrypted talk group to their clear talk group? That sort of defeats the purpose of encryption.

It is better to set aside an encrypted talk group for ONLY those who require it and make it a procedure to use that talk group for sensitive information. You will have a limited number of ears listening in, and those using the TG can position themselves where they will not be overheard.
 

mmckenna

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The keyloader is only as good as the admin or techs who control it and tell some NO you're not authorized or needing it and have no reason to. Throw in small place politics you can see how it'll go. Heck there is a city board who are elected who have access on their entities system and couple have questionable backgrounds. No No not with ours you dont.
Yeah, that is a problem. Anytime I have that come up, I send them to our Chief. Get her to sign off on this and I'll program your radio for you. Been 25 years now, and I've never had anyone come back to take me up on it.

And you provide a very good explanation on why scanner listeners will never be given access to encryption keys.
 

William2910

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I'd ask for proof, because that makes zero sense, not the way you described it.
Encryption keys are like the key to your house. Once you give someone else a copy, you've lost control over who has access to the house. That other person could go to the hardware store, make 100 copies, and hand them out to random people on the street.

Even if this did happen, the very thing people claim to be afraid of with encryption will just shift to cellular, or meeting behind 7-11….
I could see the ipra document being sent out like this. Thank you for contacting us Mr J Doe. Here below is thr requested information in your ipra request.

Key/tag
Key1/ r1 LPD main *********************************************
(Redacted)

Etc.

🤣
 

mmckenna

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I could see the ipra document being sent out like this. Thank you for contacting us Mr J Doe. Here below is thr requested information in your ipra request.

Key/tag
Key1/ r1 LPD main *********************************************
(Redacted)

Etc.

🤣
Or, give them a copy and immediately OTAR all the radios.
 

marcotor

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marcotor,

Here is link to post about it.
I don't know why Orange county didn't have encypted zone all ready programmed or aka fall back zone or have switch programmed to turn it off. If I was programming there radio's I would have.
Ok, well that thread, which I watch often, said nothing about the encryption being lifted yet, so I don't quite understand how you could deduce from the speculation and guesses in that thread, "Radios were reprogrammed and encryption was removed".

And again, it sounds like you are quite an expert on radio programming and multi-site trunking system design, I would invite you to consider a move to SoCal, where you could make a very nice living working for OCComms - they have many open positions. it's obvious they don't know what they are doing, and could use your expert advice :p
 
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