Help Pass The HOA Legislation

[mmckenna]

First of all, what is an HOA? An HOA isn't a local county or state agency, so why do Homeowners need to acquire permission to erect an antenna?

An HOA really has no local or federal legal authority to dictate to Homeowners on what they can or cannot to their property.

To me, Homeowners should not allow any HOAs to dictate what they or can't do on their own property. I mean, if you pay your mortgage and taxes, so why aren't allowed to have the final word on erecting antennas, especially for two-way communications?

Now if a Homeowner wishes to erect an antenna tower, then that does require permission the municipality or municipalities where the Homeowner resides.

Yeah, not that easy.

As AK9R said, when someone buys a home in an HOA, they are required to sign paperwork as part of the purchase that says they understand they are in an HOA, that they will abide by the rules established by the HOA, and agree to pay HOA dues.

Even if not in an HOA, most suburban areas have "Covenants, Codes and Restrictions" (aka CC&R's) that you must agree to when purchasing the land/home.

Don't sign? You don't get to buy. It's that easy. Decide to not pay dues? Get a lien placed on your title. Change your mind afterwards? Too bad, sell your home and move out.

So, like I said above, people who are in HOA's -KNEW- they were buying into an HOA and put their signature on the line that they understood that, would abide by ALL the rules and would pay dues.
Sometimes what happens when making big purchases, like a home or car, there's a LOT of documents to sign and people tend to rush through them without reading what they are signing (bad idea).

I have -zero- sympathy for amateur radio operators that sign the agreements and then want the rules changed after the fact to suit their own needs. That's not the way life usually works. Signatures mean something to most people.

 

[12dbsinad]

Moral of the story that I swear by:

NEVER buy in a HOA controlled area that a bunch of Karen's can all of a sudden dictate what you can and cannot do by a simple vote of the said Karen Board Of Directors.

You live in America, land of the free, home of the brave.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[mmckenna]

Moral of the story that I swear by:

NEVER buy in a HOA controlled area that a bunch of Karen's can all of a sudden dictate what you can and cannot do by a simple vote of the said Karen Board Of Directors.

You live in America, land of the free, home of the brave.

That's my 2 cents.

Or,

Step up and get on the HOA board, which is what both my dad did and my brother in law did. Most people don't want to do it, and will vote for anyone other than the Karens. Karens usually take over because apathetic people won't vote, won't participate and won't speak up. All it takes is a few good people to step up.

But don't expect to overthrow the rules just by being on the board. It's still a democracy, there's still controls in place and homeowners get to vote.

 

[AK9R]

I have -zero- sympathy for amateur radio operators that sign the agreements and then want the rules changed after the fact to suit their own needs. That's not the way life usually works. Signatures mean something to most people.

I tend to agree. When I bought my house, I knew it was an in HOA and knew what the antenna restrictions were. Nonetheless, I've achieved Worked All States and DX Century Club using antennas that my neighbors don't seem to care about. Do I want a 60 foot tower with a tri-band beam? Yes. Do I think a 60 foot tower with a tri-band beam is practical on a 90x120 foot lot? No. Am I going to ask the HOA if I can put one up? Also no.

When this "fight HOA antenna restrictions" thing first came up several years ago, I attended a town hall put on by my U.S representative. During the Q&A, I asked about a Congressional act to make it limit HOA antenna restrictions. His response was "The libertarian in me says 'why should government overrule private land contracts?'" He had a point then and I think that point is salient now.

OTOH, Congress did pass a law saying that HOAs could not restrict over-the-air TV antennas or small satellite dishes. It's easy for the amateur radio operator to look at that and say "why do the broadcast TV and direct broadcast satellite industries get to benefit from Congressional action but amateur radio doesn't?". Well, Bucky, those industries are much larger than amateur radio and, gee, they have more lobbying money. As is often the case in government, he who has the gold makes the rules.

Step up and get on the HOA board

Exactly what I did. I've been vice president of my HOA the past two years. I haven't said a thing about amateur radio antennas, either. But, I want to be there should the question come up. At last check, there are about a half dozen amateur radio operators in a residential development with 360 houses. That's what I call a minority.

 

[mmckenna]

OTOH, Congress did pass a law saying that HOAs could not restrict over-the-air TV antennas or small satellite dishes. It's easy for the amateur radio operator to look at that and say "why do the broadcast TV and direct broadcast satellite industries get to benefit from Congressional action but amateur radio doesn't?". Well, Bucky, those industries are much larger than amateur radio and, gee, they have more lobbying money. As is often the case in government, he who has the gold makes the rules.

I believe the over the air antenna thing still has a restriction on size. I think I read one somewhere that limits the dish antennas to 1 meter.

I absolutely think that should apply to hams, also. But the legislation talks about 43 foot verticals, towers, etc. Big difference.

Us hams are supposed to be resourceful and figure out how to work within limitations. This would be a good place to prove that. I know a few hams that have done really well in HOA controlled areas, they just figured out how to work with the limitations they agreed to.
In other words, when the SHTF and "all else fails", how are hams going to respond and set up their command post if they don't have a 43 foot vertical and a tower and work all states with multiplier points? Hams need to figure out how to adapt to less than ideal situations, and maybe that should start at home.

If a ham wants a 160 meter contest station, then buying a postage stamp lot in an HOA controlled neighborhood probably was a bad idea and they should consider other option. Not force everyone else to adapt.

Exactly what I did. I've been vice president of my HOA the past two years. I haven't said a thing about amateur radio antennas, either. But, I want to be there should the question come up. At last check, there are about a half dozen amateur radio operators in a residential development with 360 houses. That's what I call a minority.

My dad joined, and so did his neighbor that was a freshly retired sheriff deputy. I think there was one other person. No stupid Karen games.

My brother in law did the same thing, and they outnumbered the Karens and brought back some sanity.

 

[Coffeemug]

HOAs have the authority that the homeowners grant them when they buy into the area that the HOA controls. This amounts to a private land use contract between the HOA and the property owner.

In Indiana, and many other states, subjugation to the HOA's covenants goes with the deed to the property. If you don't follow the covenants, the HOA can fine you which will be attached to the property as a lein that m aren't apart of Local or State Government, then HOAs have no legal authority tell Homeowners what they can or can't do on their own property. T

I'll never understand why HOAs exist. I mean, what is the purpose for an HOA? I know HOA is Homeowner Association, but what's their purpose besides dictating to Homeowners on what they can and can't do.

 

[buddrousa]

In short it is a way to control what is next to you so it does not look trashy tall grass junk cars ect.

 

[12dbsinad]

I'll never understand why HOAs exist. I mean, what is the purpose for an HOA? I know HOA is Homeowner Association, but what's their purpose besides dictating to Homeowners on what they can and can't do.

They exist because of their personal believes on how you should live and what they expect from their neighbors. IE: how long you can keep your trash cans visible to them after trash day, what you can do with landscape, what you can have on your roof, what color you paint your house, can't display political signs, have to get approval for holiday decorations, the list goes on and on. Sure you can join "the board", but if your views are not in-line with other fellow board members you are just pissing in the wind as majority rules.

It would be a cold day in hell that I "own" my own home but have to get "permission" for anything and everything I do (within reason). Some HOA's are worse than others but to me it's just not something I'm willing to deal with. Others may feel differently and that's fine, I have no issues with that but it's just my opinion which in the grand scoop of things is worth nothing. To each their own.

 

[12dbsinad]

In short it is a way to control what is next to you so it does not look trashy tall grass junk cars ect.

A lot of populated areas already account for the extreme in their code. HOA's seem to take it to the extreme to the point of violating your rights as a homeowner in America that you pay taxes on. That's the difference.

 

[AK9R]

I'll never understand why HOAs exist. I mean, what is the purpose for an HOA?

Here's my theory based on a. watching how my town deals with new housing developments and b. being on the board of my HOA:

What used to be small towns around Indianapolis are experiencing significant growth. The town where I live has gone from about 9,200 residents in 1994 to 33,000 residents in 2024. That's 259% growth in 30 years. Governmentally, the town has a town council and a clerk-treasurer, no mayor. The town council has really struggled over the past 30 years go manage the growth and, most importantly, make sure that the residents have the necessary governmental services at the local level (police, fire, water, sewer, street maintenance, parks, building inspections, snow removal, trash removal, etc.).

One of the techniques that the town has applied is to tell residential developers, the guys who buy a hundred acres of farmland and turn it into houses, that new developments must have an HOA. I pointed out to a town councilor that this seems wrong to me because it inserts another layer of quasi-government between the resident and the town. Well, that's by design. Requiring HOAs pushes some of the town's duties off on the HOA.

Here's an example: The residential development where I live has about 360 houses. Because the town, the county, and the state didn't want all the storm water runoff from those houses to occasionally flood the streams, the development was built with an engineered storm water system that consists of 15 retention ponds. Those ponds are on property owned by the HOA and, until recently, the HOA didn't understand that they were responsible for maintaining those ponds (dredging, bank maintenance, catch basin maintenance). The town isn't going to do this maintenance. They don't have the money and, well, the ponds are on HOA property. It's going to cost the HOA $10,000-30,000 to fix the damage that has occurred to each of the 15 ponds. So, the HOA imposes a special levy on the property owners. The town can stay out of it. They don't have to hire the contractors, supervise the work, or pay for it. But, the issue that hangs over the HOA is that if we don't do anything about the ponds, the town can fine us for letting too much storm water run downstream.

One of the major issues that HOAs deal with is maintaining property values. Members of an HOA don't want their houses to lose value because their next door neighbor painted his house purple with green polka dots or the guy across the street has 5 derelict cars in his driveway. So, the HOAs swing into action and impose covenants. Those covenants restrict what you can do with your property and they'll fine you if you get out of line. Yes, some of those covenants go beyond what's in the local zoning laws. But, that's what my neighbors wanted.

I'll be clear, I'm not crazy about having to deal with an HOA. But, when I was shopping for houses in 2007-2008, it quickly became apparent that I either couldn't afford the houses that didn't have an HOA or I wouldn't want to live in a house in a neighborhood that didn't have an HOA. So, I reluctantly bought a house in an HOA. As, I mentioned before, I can't have the big tower and the tri-bander, but I do OK.

 

[mmckenna]

I'll never understand why HOAs exist. I mean, what is the purpose for an HOA? I know HOA is Homeowner Association, but what's their purpose besides dictating to Homeowners on what they can and can't do.

Some will say it's control.

That's possible. Usually the way HOA's work is that they help homeowners act like adults. I do not live in an HOA, but several others in my family do. There's some good parts of it:
Someone isn't allowed to keep their rusty De Soto collection on their front lawn.
Someone isn't allowed to run a pig farm on in their backyard stinking up the neighborhood.
Someone isn't allowed to paint their home bright pink with purple polka dots.
Hobbyists are not allowed to stick up a 100 foot tower with a beam antennas on their 60x60 foot lot.
Some HOA's maintain common spaces, like parks, swimming pools, trails, etc. That's a good thing in some areas, and people actually want that.

Case in point:
My sister lives in an HOA. She had no issues having her house painted. No one dictated the color choice, they only wanted to know she wasn't going to have it painted bright pink with purple polka dots.
My dad was on an HOA board. Only time they had to get involved was when some neighbor decided to start storing his broken down car in one of the visitor parking spaces. No issues with cars in garages or driveways.
My brother in law is on an HOA board, and they made some changes that allowed people to put up fences since they are in a rural area and cattle roam on adjacent open grazing land.

People that don't live in HOA's and claim they'll never live in HOA's, are usually are getting their anecdotal information from the internet. Yes, there are bad HOA's, Not all HOA's are bad.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I believe the over the air antenna thing still has a restriction on size. I think I read one somewhere that limits the dish antennas to 1 meter.

FCC is only protecting the currently profitable Ku band TV satellites. People who want to do C band or other satellite surfing are still out of luck.

 

[wa8pyr]

I'll be clear, I'm not crazy about having to deal with an HOA. But, when I was shopping for houses in 2007-2008, it quickly became apparent that I either couldn't afford the houses that didn't have an HOA or I wouldn't want to live in a house in a neighborhood that didn't have an HOA. So, I reluctantly bought a house in an HOA. As, I mentioned before, I can't have the big tower and the tri-bander, but I do OK.

I'm in exactly the same boat. When I bought my house in 2004, I was faced with the same choice, either buy in an area without an HOA that I couldn't afford, or buy in an area without an HOA that was a s**thole. So, like you, I reluctantly bought in an area with an HOA and have subsequently done reasonably well in the ham radio department with antennas in my attic. As @mmckenna said, hams have to get resourceful, and I did. I also regularly set up antennas in the backyard and run QRP for an afternoon wth reasonable success.

That being said, I really would like to be able to put up an inconspicuous antenna or two out back where they're not visible from the street; the HOA is OK with this, but I'd really like it if CCRs weren't there to complicate things if someone got their panties in a bunch. Reasonable accommodation, that's all we're after.

 

[wa8pyr]

There's some good parts of it:
Someone isn't allowed to keep their rusty De Soto collection on their front lawn.
Someone isn't allowed to run a pig farm on in their backyard stinking up the neighborhood.
Someone isn't allowed to paint their home bright pink with purple polka dots.
Hobbyists are not allowed to stick up a 100 foot tower with a beam antennas on their 60x60 foot lot.
Some HOA's maintain common spaces, like parks, swimming pools, trails, etc. That's a good thing in some areas, and people actually want that.

My HOA is generally pretty good; they keep things nice without being too pushy about it, and are generally pretty easy to deal with.

One problem we have been running into lately is that homes in neighborhoods like mine (small single-family homes on small lots) are now looked upon as investment opportunities by large real estate conglomerates looking for properties to use as rentals. A few years ago when the real estate market was smoking hot, houses came up for sale regularly, and would be snapped up in less than a week by the "bots" trawling the MLS; the bots are being run by those real estate conglomerates. It got so bad that the HOA board had to enact a new regulation prohibiting more than 25% of the homes in the neighborhood being used as rentals. I think the percentage got to a bit more than 25% before they finally enacted that, but the bot purchases dropped off dramatically after that.

Of course, with more rentals, we now have a slightly greater incidence of messy properties caused by renters who don't give a crap. The Board then has to get involved and sic their attorneys on the owners of the property; of course, by the time the conglomerate attorneys have got done with their delaying tactics, the offending renter has usually moved out.

 

[mmckenna]

Like so many things, it comes down to "Don't be a di**."

There are always those few individuals out there who cannot act like a responsible adult no matter how many opportunities you give them. Being a good neighbor is an important part of a good society. Many cannot handle that level of responsibility. For those, we have to have an endless set of rules/requirements, and even HOA's.

 

[INDY72]

Obamacare for ham on the air is what this adds up to. Let ANY government agency have the power to control any aspect of your life, and you freely let them control it all. If you give Uncle Fedhead the right to say where, how, what you can do that's not in violation of laws, or telling an legal entity you signed a legal contract with that they can't enforce said contract or seek legal redress... That just plain sucks canal water. Of the irradiated Three Mile Island kind! Yes, HOA's are mostly Karens and Kens of demonic varieties who want to ruin your life in the most hardcore Liberal Democrat kind of way. But: they do still have legal protections and rights that you choose to give them by signing that HOA documentation.

 

[GlobalNorth]

First of all, what is an HOA? An HOA isn't a local county or state agency, so why do Homeowners need to acquire permission to erect an antenna?

An HOA really has no local or federal legal authority to dictate to Homeowners on what they can or cannot to their property.

To me, Homeowners should not allow any HOAs to dictate what they or can't do on their own property. I mean, if you pay your mortgage and taxes, so why aren't allowed to have the final word on erecting antennas, especially for two-way communications?

Now if a Homeowner wishes to erect an antenna tower, then that does require permission the municipality or municipalities where the Homeowner resides.

Please try not to advise on contract law, if you do not understand the basic tenets of contracts.

 

[JDKelley]

Some will say it's control.

That's possible. Usually the way HOA's work is that they help homeowners act like adults. I do not live in an HOA, but several others in my family do. There's some good parts of it:
Someone isn't allowed to keep their rusty De Soto collection on their front lawn.
Someone isn't allowed to run a pig farm on in their backyard stinking up the neighborhood.
Someone isn't allowed to paint their home bright pink with purple polka dots.
Hobbyists are not allowed to stick up a 100 foot tower with a beam antennas on their 60x60 foot lot.
Some HOA's maintain common spaces, like parks, swimming pools, trails, etc. That's a good thing in some areas, and people actually want that.

Case in point:
My sister lives in an HOA. She had no issues having her house painted. No one dictated the color choice, they only wanted to know she wasn't going to have it painted bright pink with purple polka dots.
My dad was on an HOA board. Only time they had to get involved was when some neighbor decided to start storing his broken down car in one of the visitor parking spaces. No issues with cars in garages or driveways.
My brother in law is on an HOA board, and they made some changes that allowed people to put up fences since they are in a rural area and cattle roam on adjacent open grazing land.

People that don't live in HOA's and claim they'll never live in HOA's, are usually are getting their anecdotal information from the internet. Yes, there are bad HOA's, Not all HOA's are bad.

My problem with HOAs is essentially monetary.

I already have to pay taxes to the government for the privilege of them telling me what to do. I don't like it - I think the tax bite is too large, and I think the government does too damned much (leaving aside the stupid and/or contradictory laws that needs to be struck out of hand.)
Why should I pay a "surtax" (which is essentially what it is, it's just not going to governmental body - just a quasi-governmental body, emphases on the MENTAL part. . .) so I am, in essence, paying THEM so THEY could have the privilege of telling ME what to do. I've got a problem with that, and I get enough of that from the government already. If you want to tell me what to do, then let's put the conventional employer/employee relationship back in place and YOU can pay to tell ME what to do, not the other way around.

My only direct experience with an HOA, I will admit, was about about 1988 in Lafayette, IN. I'd bought the house about six months ago (bit of a story on that one . . .) and some damned fool decided that - despite every house that fronted the block being different! - they just had to start an HOA. I knew everybody on the block, and they didn't want it, either.

The catch? They went around and put handbills in everybody's mailbox. No, nobody, per Postal regs, is allowed to put anything into a mailbox except US Post, and even then only from the box owner or the letter carrier. (At least, that's how it was then. I don't know if it's the same way now.) So, I called everyone and told them to hang on to the handbills. I ginned up a statement saying it was found in the Post box, and that the owner didn't put it there, and it wasn't sent via the Post (no Postmark.) Then I printed up about 50 copies and took them around, collected the handbills, and had everybody fill out a statement and sign it. Used almost all 50 copies.

Then I went to the local letter carrier - we had one on the block, about four doors down (she it was who told me about the box reg.) I asked her if she could get me an appointment with the local Postmaster.

Saw the Postmaster two days later. Handed him all the paperwork. He said he'd see to it - whole meeting took about a minute and a half.

I am given to understand the fine for stuffing things in Post boxes at random is fairly steep - and they got hit with it about 45 times. So much for the HOA!

Now, this was in Northern Indiana. No HOA. No problem with leaving rubbish out (we put it out in bags for the guy on the back of the truck to swing in,) no cars on blocks (if we saw a car on jacks, you'd probably have someone come around to offer help,) and the block was kept neat. Because we wanted it that way - we didn't need an external body (I didn't care about the value of my house - I bough it as a home, not an investment. Ended up signing it over - gratis - to my mother when I paid it off about six years later, sucking up every loose nickel I could fine and making a load of "Principal Only" payments to drag the backend of the Note closer.) So, I didn't get anything out of it except a place to live and work (and, on occasion, sleep. Granted, the entire year when was 16 turning 17 I wasn't home, but that's another long story. The phrase "shacked up" comes into play - but it was legal, age of consent in Indiana is - or at least was - 16.)

But, I digress. Not everyone wants an HOA, we can mow our own damn grass every weekend without threats of fines. I like being able to work on my own vehicles (it's just gotten difficult to the point where my doing it for someone else is rare.) If half the house is grey and the other white because I ran out of daylight - go away! I'm going to finish the job, I just need to be able to see when I'm painting.

I view HOAs as being like overzealous babysitters watching over people they think are all four years old. I haven't been four years old in 50 years, I don't plan on going back. Being potentially saddled with CC&Rs and/or deed restrictions is bad enough. (And if there is a deed restriction or something like that, there had better be a damned good reason for it!

 

[mikewazowski]

Since this really isn't radio related anymore, time to lock the thread.