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Help with setting up long range (50+ mile) GMRS Radio communications solution.

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mmckenna

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Key phrase in that is "Up to" 50 mile range.

100 feet falls in the "up to 50 mile range" claim. It's the buyers responsibility to read and understand everything. Unfortunately people only see "50 mile range" and nothing more.
 

K7MFC

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We also, on that same web page, say "Range is line-of-sight and will vary based on terrain."

Yeah...if you scroll down and read the fine print at the bottom you can see one single sentence addressing this: "Range is line-of-sight and will vary based on terrain." The big bold text all over the packaging and main photo on the website says 50 MILE RANGE. I kind of take issue with what I feel is dishonest marketing. The effective range 99% of consumers will get out of these radios falls well short of 50 miles, yet the "up to 50 mile range" is a main selling point of radios like these.

Would stating the actual effective range hurt sales? Would it make this radio look worse than competitors' offerings? I'm trying to understand the motivation for overselling the range of these radios, because this thread is all too common - someone who isn't extremely knowledgeable about radios buys these things and genuinely believes that they can talk 50 miles with them because the big letters on the box say so. Then they post on radioreference or some other forum about how they are disappointed that they can only talk a half mile.
 
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UPMan

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On the packaging we also prominently put a pictographic explanation of expected range as well as a paragraph explaining same.
 

K7MFC

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That's good - I've seen such literature in Midland radios I have purchased in the past and I'm glad that technical explanation of how radio works is in there. But as a consumer, it doesn't give you a great feeling when you find out that the main selling point of a product you just bought only applies to a very narrow use case scenario. Not an accusation or indictment against any manufacturer - Just my 2¢
 

W4ELL

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But as a consumer, it doesn't give you a great feeling when you find out that the main selling point of a product you just bought only applies to a very narrow use case scenario. Not an accusation or indictment against any manufacturer - Just my 2¢

You find this behavior in a lot of markets, as you probably know. Take the gas mileage listed on a new car sticker or the throughput promised by your ISP as examples.

I don't put the fault on the companies...most of them are giving you an "upper limit" of what the product can do. The included "YMMV" claim (which is really common sense in most cases) gets ignored by the consumer and then things escalate from there.

As has been said before in this very thread, consumers have to do their homework BEFORE they buy a product. They should take in ALL of the information and make an informed purchasing decision... good advice for anyone.
 

K7MFC

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Take the gas mileage listed on a new car sticker or the throughput promised by your ISP as examples.

This is very true - but the degree to which these examples exaggerate is much smaller. Ford says my F-150 is good for 17 mpg, I observe 15 mpg in the real world. I've also seen my F-150 achieve 80 mpg when I'm coasting down I-17 from Flagstaff with my foot off the gas and a steady 5% grade. Given a very constrained set of ideal circumstances, my truck is capable of operating at 80 or more mpg - the upper limit of the truck's fuel economy capability. If Ford was advertising the F-150 to have 80 miles per gallon would you put them at fault? Or pass it off as "buyer beware, you should know that ordinary conditions effectively negate this claim"?

I always kind of laughed off the "50 mile" bubble pack radios, but the more I think about it, the more it kind of irks me that this is how they're marketed.
 

mmckenna

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Would stating the actual effective range hurt sales?

And what would that be, in your opinion?

Given there are so many variables involved, it would be impossible to give an "effective range" that would apply universally.
Location of transmitting radio
Location of receiving radio
Local noise floor.
Nearby transmitters that may desense the receiver.
Co-channel users.
Variations in users body size and absorption of RF energy
Variations in the way the user holds the radio.
Battery voltage.
Variations in component tolerances.
Variations in topology between radios.
Variations of building materials if used within a building.
Variations in vehicle designs if used in a vehicle.
Age of radio
Variations in alignment.
Atmospheric conditions.
How tall the users are.

I think the "up to" claims work well, and kudos to Uniden for giving a pictorial explanation.

It's the buyers responsibility to understand what they are buying, just like it's the buyers responsibility to understand and follow the FCC Part 95 and Part 15 rules while using the radio.
 

K7MFC

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And what would that be, in your opinion?

I would argue that horizon line of site would be a fair way to advertise the expected range of bubble pack handheld radios. A person standing 6 feet tall can see 3 miles to the horizon if unobstructed, so double that and call the range ~6 miles. Put that front and center on the marketing materials, and include the "up to 50 miles" part a little less prominently. We're all very familiar with radios being hams and professionals here, so it's easy for us to see this claim for what it really is. I'm looking out for the average Joe consumer - the people actually buy and use these bubble pack radios.
 

mmckenna

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That makes sense.

However, a consumer user might then assume 6 miles in every case, and wouldn't understand how the variables I noted above would impact that.

Not making a milage claim would likely impact sales, especially if the Chinese companies continued to make ridiculous claims.
 

W4ELL

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I've also seen my F-150 achieve 80 mpg when I'm coasting down I-17 from Flagstaff with my foot off the gas and a steady 5% grade. Given a very constrained set of ideal circumstances, my truck is capable of operating at 80 or more mpg - the upper limit of the truck's fuel economy capability. If Ford was advertising the F-150 to have 80 miles per gallon would you put them at fault? Or pass it off as "buyer beware, you should know that ordinary conditions effectively negate this claim"?

I bet you could get ifninite gas mileage by dropping your F150 from a helium balloon 23 miles high but that would be unreasonable. :)

If Ford advertised that their trucks could get 80 mpg, you better believe they would have a disclaimer stating that those results weren't typical. As long as said disclaimer was present, I don't have a problem with it. It is not Ford's fault that people don't take the time to gather all the facts presented to them.

Even if Uniden decided to go with the 6 mile range option, would their competitors willingly do the same thing? I think not. Not without some regulation to make them do so... and that is a whole other can of worms.
 

NC1

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80 miles is my best contact so far to a repeater. I have a 5 watt HT hooked up to 20 feet of LMR-600, and a Tram 1481 antenna on the back deck.

The very low loss cable, along with the high gain of the antenna, is the secret formula for going long distances. I may replace the HT with a mobile unit that has a 25 watt or higher output which will get me even further. Good coax cable along with a great antenna is key.
 

KK4JUG

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80 miles is my best contact so far to a repeater. I have a 5 watt HT hooked up to 20 feet of LMR-600, and a Tram 1481 antenna on the back deck.

The very low loss cable, along with the high gain of the antenna, is the secret formula for going long distances. I may replace the HT with a mobile unit that has a 25 watt or higher output which will get me even further. Good coax cable along with a great antenna is key.

Look up the definition of "anomaly."
 

mmckenna

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Yeah, I've done about 110 miles through a repeater, but that was a high level GMRS repeater in a great location, my base in a good location and the other user in a great location. I wouldn't rely on it.

And, for the OP, throwing more power at the issue isn't the answer. Going from a 5 watt HT to a 25 watt mobile doesn't give you 5 times the range. UHF is mostly line of sight (with the exception of some specific atmospheric conditions), so adding more power will only slightly impact the range. It's all about the antenna and, "location, location, location".
 

NC1

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Look up the definition of "anomaly."

Yes I agree, it is for 5 watts, which is why I prefaced my post with the words "my best contact so far".

I am assuming the reader will comprehend the fact I pointed out that it is somewhat unusual, but not impossible to both make and surpass the 50 mile mark on GMRS.

On the other hand, using a different 5 watt HT (using the same feed line and antenna), I reliably use amateur radio repeaters 50 miles away on a regular basis. When I hook up my 50 watt mobile, it is not out of the ordinary to make contact 100 miles away. This is due to the fact I use very low loss cable along with an antenna with an 11.7 dBd gain.

After line loss I am delivering 45.82 watts at the antenna. Figure in the 11.7dBd gain, and I have an ERP of 682 watts - which is more than sufficient to make a 100 mile trip. Good coax cable, and a really good antenna will be a worth while investment.
 

iMONITOR

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Byaeger, Since you already have a GMRS license, you might want to investigate whether there are an GMRS repeaters in your area. One place to start is the following website: https://www.mygmrs.com If there are, and you can get permission to use them, you're effective range could be increased significantly.


The effectiveness of a repeater is highly dependent on it's location in relation to all the radios using the repeater.
 

AI7PM

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80 miles is my best contact so far to a repeater. I have a 5 watt HT hooked up to 20 feet of LMR-600, and a Tram 1481 antenna on the back deck.

The very low loss cable, along with the high gain of the antenna, is the secret formula for going long distances. I may replace the HT with a mobile unit that has a 25 watt or higher output which will get me even further. Good coax cable along with a great antenna is key.

Was that contact to Mt.Mitchell or Mt.Pisgah?
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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We test those to 50 miles. Our test setup is one person at the top of Mt. Scott in Oklahoma, the other person across the Red River in Texas. The radios achieve the rated range. We also, on that same web page, say "Range is line-of-sight and will vary based on terrain."

I know that Uniden is only marketing in the same way as Motorola and Midland but it is indeed very deceptive and I am surprised the FCC and FTC haven't taken a position on this. It would be far more honest to publish actual Effective radiated power in dBm and Effective Receiver sensitivity in dBm (both burdened by antenna and body loss) and as result of calculation of the two numbers state, this radio has an effective system gain of xxx dB. Then consumers could actually compare products.

From Google Earth, I note that Mt Scott does not appear to be festooned with high power antennas so the radios are not operating in a high RF environment like one might encounter in an urban area. I can probably take those radios to high rises in downtown Chicago and not be able to hear 2 miles line of site due to receiver overload.
 

bob550

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I know that Uniden is only marketing in the same way as Motorola and Midland but it is indeed very deceptive and I am surprised the FCC and FTC haven't taken a position on this. It would be far more honest to publish actual Effective radiated power in dBm and Effective Receiver sensitivity in dBm (both burdened by antenna and body loss) and as result of calculation of the two numbers state, this radio has an effective system gain of xxx dB. Then consumers could actually compare products.

From Google Earth, I note that Mt Scott does not appear to be festooned with high power antennas so the radios are not operating in a high RF environment like one might encounter in an urban area. I can probably take those radios to high rises in downtown Chicago and not be able to hear 2 miles line of site due to receiver overload.

Most consumers who buy these radios wouldn't know dBm or gain from fruit salad. But the belief that they can talk to someone "50 miles" away is something they can relate to. I sold FRS and GMRS radios at the now defunct RadioShack for over 20 years, and only saw the range claims on the packaging get more and more absurd and unrealistic over time. It's just an example of manufacturers pushing the envelope of marketing.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Most consumers who buy these radios wouldn't know dBm or gain from fruit salad. But the belief that they can talk to someone "50 miles" away is something they can relate to. I sold FRS and GMRS radios at the now defunct RadioShack for over 20 years, and only saw the range claims on the packaging get more and more absurd and unrealistic over time. It's just an example of manufacturers pushing the envelope of marketing.
It is like claiming a car will get 100 mpg when coasting downhill. My big V8 Ford will easilybget 50 mpg when I coast. But 12 mpg is more real.

I am tempted to buy a bunch of these radios at Target and then return them while demonstrating they actually won't talk down the street a couple miles.


They would be better off claiming realistic distances.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 
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