Hobby on the way out with encryption?

[cigator]

I'm just getting into this hobby, and I am annoyed that there seems to be a move afoot to encrypt scanning frequencies. Makes it seem like a $500 scanner will become a paperweight in the near future. Is this encryption part of a larger federal program, or is it at the local level? Do we lose our freedom of information out of fear of terrorists? I am really confused as to how much I should invest in a hobby that can be gone tomorrow. Too bad they don't sell a $200 digital trunk scanner.

 

[thumbtrap]

The big cities will become more so, slowly. But it will never be 100% encrypted. Probably the biggest impact terrorism has on encryption is freeing up money for public saftey upgrades. Go ahead and spend your money. You'll either be on to some other hobby or else up to your eyeballs in radio gear before it happens.

 

[SAR923]

I don't think ecryption is going to be a widespread issue, at least until there's one agreed on standard for all encrypted traffic. There seems to be more full-time encryption in the east than in the west, maybe because the large cities there are more "self-contained" and don't need to have other agencies be able to monitor their traffic. Out here, we have no full-time encryption and I don't expect there will be unless it's mandated, paid for by the feds, and we all have the same encryption standards. We have too many instances where we are dependent on scanners in mutual aid situations so LE would be in a world of hurt with full-time encryption as well. It's not uncommon for a pursuit to go over 100 miles through 7 or 8 counties and we typically know what's happening by listening to our scanners. Even most of the information that comes out of dispatch is from their scanners.

 

[nmfire10]

Hobby on the way out with encryption?

No. It's blown out of proportion. It would be a stretch to say 1% of radio traffic in the USA is encrypted. Don't worry about it.

 

[lschmidt]

Scanning enthusiasts and other scanner users need a ARRL type organization to be formed and RadioReference would be the perfect starting point since it has such a huge membership already.

 

[RolnCode3]

We have too many instances where we are dependent on scanners in mutual aid situations so LE would be in a world of hurt with full-time encryption as well.

I agree with this 100%. Unless some company produced LE scanners which could handle the encryption, and all agencies were willing to share their encryption keys, LE would be put in a world of hurt out here on the West Coast. We wouldn't know what CHP is doing, and they wouldn't know what we're doing. This would hurt us very badly, in a time when inter-agency communication is supposed to be the Holy Grail.

 

[scanhoog]

IMO, Encryption will eventually happen for at least PD and enforcement agencies. It may take another 10-15 years (next equipment cycle), but will happen.

I've known a variety of people in law enforcement, none of whom like private sector folks listening in. They often use their Nextels or (in older times) landlines or MDTs to converse because of scanners.

Once the basic infrastructure moves to digital management and digital voice, poking specific holes for public service needs is easy (open up certain talk groups, two talk buttons, one secure -- one open).

The reliability and cost issues and momentum still outweigh the desire for encryption. Once the current breed of systems have encryption with minimal cost premium, encryption will show up anywhere the systems are upgraded. Medium grade encryption with spread-spectrum technologies is almost free to implement, strong encryption won't be far behind.

For now, because digital is relatively new in replacement cycle times, there are factors in deployment that slow encryption. In a few years, those issues will vanish along with the cost premium. After that, encrypted digital will gradually replace everything else.

Just my opinion, but I'd bet at least a cup of coffee on it. On the other hand, you should still get at least a few good years out of your next scanner, but don't count on ten.

 

[lschmidt]

I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of people involved with the law enforcement profession have scanners in their patrol vehicles,their private vehicles and in their homes or offices

 

[Cobra_Commander]

Scanning enthusiasts and other scanner users need a ARRL type organization to be formed and RadioReference would be the perfect starting point since it has such a huge membership already.

Yeah that would be a good idea. but how would we form a ARRL Organization? need money to do that. just hope someday we could this encryption is really starting to get on my nerves. all the good stuff is encrypted. :evil:

 

[lschmidt]

Why not contact the ARRL themselves about it.Even amateur radio depends on being able to hear other agency comms during an emergency situation.

 

[Cobra_Commander]

Why not contact the ARRL themselves about it.Even amateur radio depends on being able to hear other agency comms during an emergency situation.

How would i contact the ARRL? and what would i say to them? :?:

 

[lschmidt]

ARRL Website Address

http://www.arrl.org/

As for what to say,just explain the situation to them.All hams here should
write to them.

 

[N_Jay]

Re: ARRL Website Address

http://www.arrl.org/

As for what to say,just explain the situation to them.All hams here should
write to them.

Once again, you guys crack me up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

1) The ARRL has no power with regard to PROFFESSIONAL communications. (yes, there is a fair amout of hams in Public Safety comms, but those hams will not be on your side of the issue.)

2) The feature set for Public Safety Comms systems are decided on by PROFESSIONALS in the respective fields, both Communications and Public Safety. Your "hobbiest" view is not a significant issue.

3) Stop worrying about what you can't listen to, and just have fun listening to what you can listen to!

 

[Voyager]

IMO, Encryption will eventually happen for at least PD and enforcement agencies. It may take another 10-15 years (next equipment cycle), but will happen.

The reliability and cost issues and momentum still outweigh the desire for encryption. Once the current breed of systems have encryption with minimal cost premium, encryption will show up anywhere the systems are upgraded. Medium grade encryption with spread-spectrum technologies is almost free to implement, strong encryption won't be far behind.

I agree that it will happen unless Congress steps in with some kind of mutual aid restrictions or giving the public the RIGHT to monitor their servants.

Encryption on todays radio is just (quote literally) a matter of software, and software IS CHEAP. So, encryption will become more prevalent as time goes on left to the current checks and balances.

High level encryption - low level encryption - it won't matter, as even low level encryption locks out 99.99999% of the public. You will never see a scanner that does encryption. The FCC simply won't allow it.

On the other hand, there will always be services that are not encrypted. There are services that cannot encrypt by law.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

Re: ARRL Website Address

http://www.arrl.org/

As for what to say,just explain the situation to them.All hams here should
write to them.

Once again, you guys crack me up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

1) The ARRL has no power with regard to PROFFESSIONAL communications. (yes, there is a fair amout of hams in Public Safety comms, but those hams will not be on your side of the issue.)

2) The feature set for Public Safety Comms systems are decided on by PROFESSIONALS in the respective fields, both Communications and Public Safety. Your "hobbiest" view is not a significant issue.

So glad you're amused. :roll:

Those agencies are subject to the laws of the USA, and if enough lobbying power can convince lawmakers to pass laws, all the professionals in the world won't be able to make a decision that would be illegal.

The objective isn't to get the ARRL to convince the decision makers to decide in a given way - it's to get a unified voice of the scanning public in the ear of the government who decides what choices the professionals have.

Joe M.

 

[richster]

Up here in Canada the exact same thing is happening, all vital services are not only going digital but are encrypted as well. Last year the city I'm in upgraded to a Motorola Astro 3600 baud mixed mode system. I figured no problem, I'll just have to get a digital scanner. Well when it when up and I was able to run T4Win on it, I was horrified to find out that ALL police comms were encrypted, even dispatch. They have some analog TG's for talking to non-digital agencies, but that's about it.

I guess there was a plus side to it, I didn't have to fork out big bucks for a new digital scanner.

Regards,
Richster.

 

[N_Jay]

Re: ARRL Website Address

http://www.arrl.org/

As for what to say,just explain the situation to them.All hams here should
write to them.

Once again, you guys crack me up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

1) The ARRL has no power with regard to PROFFESSIONAL communications. (yes, there is a fair amout of hams in Public Safety comms, but those hams will not be on your side of the issue.)

2) The feature set for Public Safety Comms systems are decided on by PROFESSIONALS in the respective fields, both Communications and Public Safety. Your "hobbiest" view is not a significant issue.

So glad you're amused. :roll:

Those agencies are subject to the laws of the USA, and if enough lobbying power can convince lawmakers to pass laws, all the professionals in the world won't be able to make a decision that would be illegal.

The objective isn't to get the ARRL to convince the decision makers to decide in a given way - it's to get a unified voice of the scanning public in the ear of the government who decides what choices the professionals have.

Joe M.

You don't get it!!

The lobbying potential of all the Scanner Listeners and all the non-public safety professional hams together is NOTHING compaired to the Interests of the Public Safety community.

Its like unicycle riders lobbying for longer yellow lights, becase they can't stop fast.

You are over-rating your importance and not seeing the bigger picture.

 

[Voyager]

Re: ARRL Website Address

http://www.arrl.org/

As for what to say,just explain the situation to them.All hams here should
write to them.

Once again, you guys crack me up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

1) The ARRL has no power with regard to PROFFESSIONAL communications. (yes, there is a fair amout of hams in Public Safety comms, but those hams will not be on your side of the issue.)

2) The feature set for Public Safety Comms systems are decided on by PROFESSIONALS in the respective fields, both Communications and Public Safety. Your "hobbiest" view is not a significant issue.

So glad you're amused. :roll:

Those agencies are subject to the laws of the USA, and if enough lobbying power can convince lawmakers to pass laws, all the professionals in the world won't be able to make a decision that would be illegal.

The objective isn't to get the ARRL to convince the decision makers to decide in a given way - it's to get a unified voice of the scanning public in the ear of the government who decides what choices the professionals have.

Joe M.

You don't get it!!

The lobbying potential of all the Scanner Listeners and all the non-public safety professional hams together is NOTHING compaired to the Interests of the Public Safety community.

Its like unicycle riders lobbying for longer yellow lights, becase they can't stop fast.

You are over-rating your importance and not seeing the bigger picture.

I'm sorry, but I just refuse to buy a "you're never going to get it, so it's best to not even TRY to get it" answer. We need to get more people involved in scanning, and convince them to present a unified voice to Congress. After all, there are very legitimate reasons to pass encryption bans on all but the most critical time sensitive communications (such as drug house raids). Routine dispatch communications has no reason to be encrypted, and such actions should be prohibited. The public has a right to listen to a communications system THEY BOUGHT. Your neighbor has a right to know that you are chasing a criminal toward their town (without the filter of a relay person). You have the right to know a man with a gun is on your street so you can protect yourself.

Government has to learn (as many have) that they can't do it all themselves. If they could, there would be no crime. They need the support of their communities. It's EASY to turn a blind eye to your community when the Feds are handing out money, but when that well runs dry, you had better not have burned your true blue financial bridges.

Secret government communications only lead to secret governments.

In GOD we trust, not in government.

I know you're going to enjoy picking this post to pieces, so enjoy (again).

Joe M.

 

[Pro-95]

My take and not that it is significant.

As long as all the agencies that need to communicate with each other, can, then I really don't care much what they do, if they think they must.

If it becomes boring to listen to the scanner, I'll do the same that I did with my TV, shut it off and do something else.

I beleive that if someone needs to hide what they are saying then they have something to hide. Most agencies nowadays use computers in the car to transmit the most sensitive of information. Encrypting is generally unneccesary. Encryption for stakeouts, sting and net operations is definately an acceptable use of encryption.

To think that encryption will stop the next Homeland Security event is a idea born from the finest crack sold and unfortunately there are several "proffesionals" that are buying into it.

I do sincerly hope that when the general public is outlawed(yes, correct term here), from monitoring the agencies that enforce the laws on the general public, does not lead to mistakes of the past, when the general populace isn't allowed to observe, monitor or question those in power.

 

[bill71]

Fayetteville, Arkansas was going to go digital/encryption a couple of years ago when they put up another tower for their 800Mhz. system. The public said they understood for very sensative transmitions, but they were footing the bill, and wanted to know what was going on. I'm not saying it would work everywhere, but Fayetteville is still anolog today. Sorry for the spelling, tired but can't sleep.


Bill H.