Home Patrol / The cost thread...

[scnnr]

On the face of it, that sounds like an apples vs. oranges statement. But you help illustrate the point that they ARE competing for a consumer's disposable income.

Well as you can see I have a couple of great digital scanners already I wouldn't mind one of the new Unidens but as you mentioned one has to decide what they want to spend their disposable income on. Especially if the new Uniden's are indeed going to be in that lower to middle $500 + range.

 

[RadioDaze]

Let's all try to remember that it's called "Home Patrol".

Its function and form factor make its primary application fairly obvious. So there.

 

[Viper43]

Yeah, and it's just as at "home" in the car too since it was designed for mobile use as well as at home. And it can go portable as well..... so it's primary application is a SCANNER....

V

Let's all try to remember that it's called "Home Patrol".

Its function and form factor make its primary application fairly obvious. So there.

 

[Drowsiness]

The DRAM in your PC is dirt cheap.

The SRAM incorporated into a microcontroller, microprocessor, or DSP is still pretty pricey - especially when you're talking 1MB or more (based on Paul's above "Virtually unlimited channels (1MB of channels at a time...)", which leads me to believe the HP loads "active channels" into a big chunk of SRAM).

The prices have come down a bit. When the first P25 trunk-tracker came out in 2003, it was ~$500. The current digital trunk-trackers are ~$500. Today's $500 is less than 2003's (adjusted for the CPI from 09/2003 until 05/2010, 2003's $500 would be about $590 today). And this doesn't even count the increases in features and capabilites.

I was not speaking about DRAM.

SRAM is still RAM, no matter what you want to add in front the of RAM part. In the case of SRAM, it means Static Random Access Memory and checking the vendor prices, it's currently around $1.80 per megabyte in bulk. Considering that Uniden would buy in bulk, I do not see it appreciably adding to the final price of this product in any way.

As for prices coming down... I never said they did not, I said they have not come down much. Your $90 difference example shows that in a full color picture. Seven year old tech still fetching $500+? That is a bit harsh, sorry.

 

[Viper43]

Your $90 difference example shows that in a full color picture. Seven year old tech still fetching $500+? That is a bit harsh, sorry.

Where do you get that this is 7 year old tech? I think if they had this technology 7 years ago we never would have had the XT's. Even so, the cars being designed today won't be on the roads next year or 5 years from now, some technology may be, but they are always designing things years ahead of when you actually see it, same goes for this industry as well. Everything takes time, and time costs money, Uniden is going to have to pay for that R&D at some point and with each new model we pay for it a little at a time. Whether the HomePatrol costs $400 (doubfull) or $500 it's still a bargain. And considering what most people spend money on these days dropping $500 isn't a big deal. I know one guy who just dropped $600 on a ham radio and he's on disability getting $600 a month, and knowing him he'd drop $500 for the HomePatrol too.

V

 

[DonS]

SRAM is still RAM, no matter what you want to add in front the of RAM part. In the case of SRAM, it means Static Random Access Memory and checking the vendor prices, it's currently around $1.80 per megabyte in bulk.

Look at the price you mentioned for SRAM, and compare it to the price for DRAM that you might put in your PC. If "SRAM is still RAM, no matter what you want to add in front of the RAM part", and if 1MB of SRAM costs $1.80, then the 4GB of DRAM in my PC should cost about $7300.

SRAM has always cost more than DRAM. SRAM embedded into a microcontroller has always cost more than discrete SRAM parts. Sure, you can often run a microcontroller in "microprocessor mode", sacrificing several (~30) GPIO pins for an address / data bus, but now you've a) added a new part (external SRAM), b) added more high-frequency traces to the PCB, c) lost those ~30 GPIO pins that you may have needed for other functions, and d) cost yourself valuable power consumption and PCB real estate.

You don't have to take my (25-year embedded hardware/software developer's) word for it. Look at Uniden's products. If I remember Paul's posts correctly, the TGID / RadioID limits in previous scanners were based on RAM. The HP's "1MB of channels" limit seems to be based on RAM. If it was so easy to [cheaply] add RAM to a product, wouldn't Uniden be doing it in order to remove such limitations?

 

[Drowsiness]

Look at the price you mentioned for SRAM, and compare it to the price for DRAM that you might put in your PC. If "SRAM is still RAM, no matter what you want to add in front of the RAM part", and if 1MB of SRAM costs $1.80, then the 4GB of DRAM in my PC should cost about $7300.

You missed the point of that, or you just like to play with semantics.

RAM is RAM. That is the point. The fact that you want to keep comparing DRAM with SRAM both confuses and intrigues me. Again... NONE of these HP units will house 4GB of RAM, let alone 4GB of SRAM. Even if they did, you can get a 64GB SSD drive for around $230 or less these days. That is non-volatile RAM storing your data.

SRAM has always cost more than DRAM. SRAM embedded into a microcontroller has always cost more than discrete SRAM parts. Sure, you can often run a microcontroller in "microprocessor mode", sacrificing several (~30) GPIO pins for an address / data bus, but now you've a) added a new part (external SRAM), b) added more high-frequency traces to the PCB, c) lost those ~30 GPIO pins that you may have needed for other functions, and d) cost yourself valuable power consumption and PCB real estate.

I am not talking about discrete RAM modules. I am talking about individual memory ICs, which are cheaper on the whole for a company to buy in bulk. You seem to think that these units will be housing some insanely fast microprocessors and gigabytes worth of memory when, in fact, I doubt they will be. It still comes down to the fact that the parts are not as expensive as you seemingly think they are.

ou don't have to take my (25-year embedded hardware/software developer's) word for it. Look at Uniden's products. If I remember Paul's posts correctly, the TGID / RadioID limits in previous scanners were based on RAM. The HP's "1MB of channels" limit seems to be based on RAM. If it was so easy to [cheaply] add RAM to a product, wouldn't Uniden be doing it in order to remove such limitations?

Considering your credentials, I am not so sure I should need to tell you this but... memory is memory. Whether it is dynamic or static, it all serves to store information, even if temporarily as in DRAM in your PC. Why you keep bringing up PCs is beyond me, since the scanner in mention here and a desktop/laptop computer are entirely different animals.

Also, try to keep in mind that you are probably not the only programmer in the world or on these forums. No disrespect intended here in my posts, but you -do- seem to be taking them on a personal level and you may want to re-evaluate that aspect of this discussion.

Anyway, I can see you are passionate about your stance that SRAM should warrant an exorbitant price tag for some reason... but it shouldn't. Static RAM right now is present in A LOT of consumer electronics from small, inexpensive toys, all the way up to Intel's X-25M, which isn't even $500 itself.

Non-Volatile memory is nice and everything, but it is no longer as expensive as you seem to think.

 

[Drowsiness]

Where do you get that this is 7 year old tech? I think if they had this technology 7 years ago we never would have had the XT's. Even so, the cars being designed today won't be on the roads next year or 5 years from now, some technology may be, but they are always designing things years ahead of when you actually see it, same goes for this industry as well. Everything takes time, and time costs money, Uniden is going to have to pay for that R&D at some point and with each new model we pay for it a little at a time. Whether the HomePatrol costs $400 (doubfull) or $500 it's still a bargain. And considering what most people spend money on these days dropping $500 isn't a big deal. I know one guy who just dropped $600 on a ham radio and he's on disability getting $600 a month, and knowing him he'd drop $500 for the HomePatrol too.

V

The seven years old part comes from his post. He mentioned the P25 series being around from 2003. That would be ~10 years now.

It must be nice to be rich and all, but a lot of people are not which is evident in the replies to the cost thread. A lot of posts say "too rich for my wallet" here. That -is- a big deal, especially when money is tougher to come by for a lot of folks who just happen to be scanner enthusiasts.

As for R&D... I can't imagine that they would have spent the kind of money you seem to think they have. Then again, if $500 is such an easy hit to take to the wallet, they shouldn't mind selling these at a respectable price.

As for the cars... even those get cheaper as the YEAR goes on. When the new model year is close, the dealerships tend to have insane sales and lop off THOUSANDS for the old technology. Why is it not the same here?

Sure.. I will concede that the new features are nice in the XT model scanners. But really, how hard were those implement? How much money did it -really- take to say: "Hey! We need to be able to support re-banding!" or whatever?

I could always be wrong, sure... I admit that. But R&D on this couldn't be THAT much money. I doubt it took Uniden 4 years as people have suggested to come up with this concept for a scanner, especially since it has become the norm in electronics which require a user interface.

 

[DonS]

I am not talking about discrete RAM modules. I am talking about individual memory ICs

So am I. SRAM (the type of RAM that would be used in such a scanner) is relatively expensive. Not just in terms of "per-unit IC cost", but in terms of what it takes to incorporate it into a device (see I/O pins and PCB real estate above).

You seem to think that these units will be housing some insanely fast microprocessors and gigabytes worth of memory when, in fact, I doubt they will be. It still comes down to the fact that the parts are not as expensive as you seemingly think they are.

I'm thinking of going from a 25MHz uP with 256kB internal RAM to an equivalent (i.e. same manufacturer, same family, same capabilities) 25MHz uP with 384kB of internal RAM. The delta is much more than $1.80 per MB.

Abandoning internal RAM in favor of (cheaper) external RAM has other design costs, which I attempted to outline above.

Also, try to keep in mind that you are probably not the only programmer in the world or on these forums.

That's almost certainly accurate.

However, to my knowledge, I'm the only active RR forum participant who is also responsible for hardware design, firmware design, and firmware development for trunking scanners. If you know of anyone else here on RR with the same responsibilities, I'd be happy to hear their perspective on the matter.

 

[DonS]

you -do- seem to be taking them on a personal level and you may want to re-evaluate that aspect of this discussion.

I'm not taking the "RAM" part of the discussion personally, at all. The devices I've designed and programmed are not at all limited by RAM. In the last several years, the most RAM I've had available in an embedded project has been 31kB - that number has not been relevant to my designs.

 

[kb9hgi]

I know one guy who just dropped $600 on a ham radio and he's on disability getting $600 a month, and knowing him he'd drop $500 for the HomePatrol too.

V

But that ham radio was well worth it. Not only you can sit and listen and be a nosey body but you can talk on a ham radio. Some of the stuff these ham radios would do and for the price would blow a scanner away.

 

[geoff5093]

I'm wondering something... Since this is based off the RR database, what will happen if you are in a town where the police and fire are dispatched by another town, and all it says in the database is "Police dispatched by 'othertown'" in text?

 

[UPMan]

Then that channel will display with that description. Lots of channel descriptions need some improvement. A few are written as small novels.

 

[Viper43]

Then that channel will display with that description. Lots of channel descriptions need some improvement. A few are written as small novels.

Or they are in a code no one has a decipher for!

V

 

[kontos]

Then that channel will display with that description. Lots of channel descriptions need some improvement. A few are written as small novels.

Another thing that I expect will trip up the Home Patrol. The situation where the data in the RR DB is good, but the system is screwy enough to need a note such as:

An important note about Monroe County PL/DPL listed on EMS and Fire Channels:

While PL and DPL's are listed for some channels, not all units will use the same PL/DPL when talking to each other or with dispatch. For example, you'll find all EMS units in the county transmit back to ECD with a 186.2 PL tone, while dispatch transmits with a DPL.

Please keep this in mind when programming your scanners. You should use CSQ only on these channels to ensure that you hear both dispatch and the units in the field without issue.

 

[rdale]

...and that's where I assume the good people of RR will help out HP users and explain how to edit that in the software.

 

[Highpockets]

It would be nice if you had a choice when you turned on the HP scanner:

1. Use pre-programmed frequencies / with option to update through Uniden Server.

2. Use user defined programming with option to delete pre-programmed frequencies.

3. Check for scanner upgrade's, CPU-Firmware, etc.

 

[UPMan]

1. This is the default (before the slash).
2. If you create a favorites list, and it was the last thing you were using, then that is what it will use the next time you start it up.
3. This (and after the slash for #1) is a function of the HomePatrol Sentinel software. Just click "Update Database" or "Update Firmware" and it will check for a more recent version (internet connection required).

 

[Highpockets]

Can you delete the pre-programmed freq's/systems, and what is the limit on so called favorites list.

 

[UPMan]

I suppose you could delete the database if you didn't want it to work anymore...

Each favorites list can be up to 1 MB.