House Bill Would Repeal T-Band Giveback

[RadioDitch]

The remaining users have no reason to move and that makes the spectrum effectively useless as a cellular/data service.

I lost the link, but there was a joint comment submitted to the FCC by the major wireless carriers that clearly stated they had no desire to use the spectrum for mobile/cellular services anyway shortly after the original T-band scuttle happened. And 5G has been developed by the major carriers under 3GPP's TS 38.101 standard of 5G being in the NR bands.

 

[wa8pyr]

We rebanded in 2008. We finally closed it all out earlier this year.
I recall the kick off meeting. 2 Motorola technical guys and 3 or 4 sales people. We spent a whole 15 minutes talking about rebanding the system, then they wanted to spend another hour selling us a brand new P25 system. I finally had to shut the salespeople down since it was not going to happen.

Ditto. Wish I had known then what I know now, though; I would have told Nextel to just give me the money, and put it toward a P25 upgrade. Had we started the process a few years later I would have.

I can totally feel for the system admins of the T-Band systems out there (and there are more than a few which are fairly new P25 installations). The uncertainty must be pretty dang stressful.

 

[fwradio]

There is zero mention of non public-safety licensees anywhere with all of the T-band mandates, but the FCC was quick to lock down T-band and not allow new stations to be licensed, or modifying a license unless it essentially reduced coverage area. Now they have made it where non public-safety licensees can file for renewals but they will stay in pending status until they figure out what's going to happen.

There is no provision in the law that mandates the auction of this spectrum for the non public-safety licenses to move, or for any compensation to cover the costs of moving. I see the potential for some lawyer to make a lot of money gathering non public-safety licensees to file against the FCC on this one. (only the lawyers win)

 

[hitechRadio]

I don't live near these large cities so I am kind of mixed on my opinion..

I say auction it.......
Many if not most frequencies used in the T-Band are conventional.
It is time these large cities get with the times and go to a spectrum efficient modes, TDMA Trunked comes to mind!!!!

Or NOT auction it.....
It is almost like these large cities had an inside track. The government will be paying for them a brand new shiny Trunked system, when they get kicked off the T-Band..... So let them stay on these legacy systems, when everyone else (in the country) is getting with the times. And we (the country) in one way or another pay for it.

 

[k9wkj]

current "repacking" of the UHF TV spectrum

it isnt just UHF
there is a revival of VHF and yes even lowband VHF !
there will be at least one channel 2 going back on as well as several channel 3 and it goes up from there
the top end is channel 36
there were 100s of stations paid to change frequencies
in some cases they were paid to go dark
of course this involved Canadian stations near the border as well
the amounts of money changing hands was staggering, and nobody even noticed
Broadcast Incentive Auction and Post-Auction Transition
Broadcast TV Transition: What to Watch For

 

[wa8pyr]

I don't live near these large cities so I am kind of mixed on my opinion..

I say auction it.......
Many if not most frequencies used in the T-Band are conventional.
It is time these large cities get with the times and go to a spectrum efficient modes, TDMA Trunked comes to mind!!!!

Or NOT auction it.....
It is almost like these large cities had an inside track. The government will be paying for them a brand new shiny Trunked system, when they get kicked off the T-Band..... So let them stay on these legacy systems, when everyone else (in the country) is getting with the times. And we (the country) in one way or another pay for it.

But the problem with auctioning it (which seems to have escaped the rocket scientists who came up with the idea in the first place) is that the T-Band is only available for Land Mobile Radio (LMR) in the largest metro areas such as NYC, Chicago, LA and so on; these areas made pretty heavy investments in narrowbanding just a few years ago, and many of them have invested in P25 trunked systems on T-Band frequencies. That's where the cost-benefit ratio comes into play; the cost to replace all those existing systems would far exceed any monetary gains from an auction.

Elsewhere in the country channels 14-20 are still available (and heavily used) for TV broadcasting, and with "repacking" of the TV bands I expect the usage of those channels will only increase. it's likely that one of the reasons the wireless companies aren't particularly interested in the spectrum is that it would not be a nationwide allocation, only an allocation in the largest metro areas.

 

[mmckenna]

... these areas made pretty heavy investments in narrowbanding just a few years ago,...

DA 12-642 exempted T-Band from narrow banding. Doesn't mean someone of them didn't do it, but even the FCC saw it as a useless fire drill to make them narrow band when they were going to reallocate anyway.

 

[N9JIG]

DA 12-642 exempted T-Band from narrow banding. Doesn't mean someone of them didn't do it, but even the FCC saw it as a useless fire drill to make them narrow band when they were going to reallocate anyway.

Don't I know all about that!

2 weeks after we finished narrow-banding two dozen repeaters, dozens of receiver sites, and several hundred each of mobile and portable T-Band radios they announced that T-Band would be exempt from narrow-banding.

I hadn't even received the bills from the radio service for the infrastructure programming nor been paid for my OT to program the fleet then. That was $50K down the drain.

 

[fwradio]

I don't live near these large cities so I am kind of mixed on my opinion..

I say auction it.......
Many if not most frequencies used in the T-Band are conventional.
It is time these large cities get with the times and go to a spectrum efficient modes, TDMA Trunked comes to mind!!!!

Or NOT auction it.....
It is almost like these large cities had an inside track. The government will be paying for them a brand new shiny Trunked system, when they get kicked off the T-Band..... So let them stay on these legacy systems, when everyone else (in the country) is getting with the times. And we (the country) in one way or another pay for it.

Most of the T-band channels are used by non public-safety. And of them, most of them are already digital, either 6.25 NexEdge or DMR TDMA. There has been a big push by Motorola, Kenwood, and Hytera to convert LTR over to digital, and that had a huge effect on how T-band channels were utilized.

In Dallas-Fort Worth there is now virtually no public safety left on T-band. They have all gone to the regional 700/800 Mhz P25 networks. The bands are full of digital though. And those licensees are not public safety, and are not accounted for in the 2012 law, and would not receive any assistance in moving as part of any auction.

 

[MtnBiker2005]

Lawmakers Discuss T-Band, 9-1-1 Fee Diversion, NG 9-1-1 Funding During FCC Hearing

MissionCritical Communications, Radio Resource International, and Public Safety Report - wireless voice and data communications for mobile, remote and public safety operations

www.rrmediagroup.com

 

[902]

There are a few things to consider. First, the FCC is upholding the law, and it does indeed know that it was ill-contrived. The FCC can't stop it, so they have exerted the only leverage they can by pushing the hold button. That puts constituent pressure on Congress to take action. That's how Washington works.

Proponents of the giveback envisioned that agencies could just jump onto the public safety broadband network, but that network is not mature, and it's currently like using a hammer to do the work of a screwdriver. A conclusion that was dismissed by virtually everyone in the loop at the time - was that VHF Low Band was the only place that could accommodate the amount of spectrum required by displaced licensees. And then everyone started seeing dollar signs from shifting frequencies (a la "rebanding") or squeezing the T-Band refugees in between 800 MHz incumbents on interstitial channels (without requiring existing wideband licensees to narrowband). None of those work in the long run, but they'll make a few people a lot of money because of the artificial crisis those "solutions" would create (just like narrowbanding did, and didn't really free up any VHF spectrum anywhere because the narrowbanded channel centers created a situation where using the channel still overlapped its adjacent channels). That would be a bonanza because it would (once again) require the wholesale forklifting of known-to-be-working systems, particularly those that haven't even been fully amortized. Quite a few in the Northeast have already gone to 700 MHz (which will someday be desirable spectrum to extend broadband into, and quite possibly "public safety" 5G) before they even fully implemented or loaded their T-Band systems. The principals of those businesses and lobbies profiting from these relocations have to be hoping they're retired with money in the bank by then, because there would no longer be a role for them once every public safety user becomes a network-dependent subscriber.

One also has to consider that the law may have been a last minute reprisal based on partisan politics, as the affected areas voted heavily in favor of a given political party (no, I have no desire to make this a political discussion, but this is one of the insider theories that circulated at one time). That might also explain the reticence in repealing it, or the lack of a "champion" from the usual players. D'ja ever wonder why they can, but they just don't?

 

[Reelfishguy]

With the TV repack the FCC has forced TV stations to change to TV channel 14 (470-476 MHz). That seems to be a recipe for disaster to the LMR systems in the 460 MHz band. Just ask the TV broadcasters how much it is costing to change frequency-mega $$$. Main and standby transmitters and in some cases new antennas. Yes the federal government is paying for that but the money they received from auctioning the spectrum is less than what the FCC is paying the broadcasters.

 

[prcguy]

So with a huge T band system like LAPD, who pays for a move to new frequencies?

 

[ten13]

what a major PITA not to mention the cost to have public safety agencies in this band migrate to 700 MHz entails.

Correct.

Let's keep in mind that the NYPD sought, and was granted, a waiver from the narrowbanding situation specifically because the cost involved. The FDNY is narrowbanded because they had ordered new radios early on which came narrowbanded.

The cost of this move to 700 (or anywhere else), in a limited amount of time, for a department like the NYPD, would be phenomenal, never mind the logistics of the phasing in of the new system.

Whoever wrote the letter looking for the waiver for the narrowbanding is probably writing one right now looking to pass this House legislation (although I'm sure that Elliot Engel has obviously gotten the word from 1 Police Plaza already).

Let's just say that all this 700 stuff is the "unintended consequences" of politicians trying to get their names in the papers after the World Trade Center, and let it all now wither on the vine and be forgotten about.

 

[AC9BX]

It's a mess.
When laid out the UHF TV band was 420MHz wide. It's now 138 or less. The TV band starts at 470MHz but as we know up to 520MHz is reserved in some markets for other services.
Yep, TV now ends at channel 36, 608MHz. Channel 37 is and has long been reserved for radio astronomy. (There actually were a few construction permits for 37 over the decades but they never went on the air) My opinion only, the only way TV is going to get those channels back is if we clear more of the upper ones making the 600MHz band wider, down to 560 or some such. They may, but I can't see mobile networks wanting to add yet another 50MHz to their networks down that low. I would suspect if they auctioned off 560 to 608 some of the proceeds could go to TV stations to move to 470 to 520.
Phase 7 of 10 in the TV repack is coming up in January.
The NTIA is hoping to clear 3.45 to 3.55 GHz for mobile broadband. This will severely disrupt the 3.3 to 3.5 GHz amateur band. The FCC (Docket 19-348) is considering eliminating that entire amateur band and also considering if feds and commercial wireless can co-exist from 3.1 to 3.55 GHz. They want to clear 3.3 to 3.55 and perhaps clear 3.1 to 3.3. In all opening 250Mhz of "flexible" spectrum. Plus, the FCC is looking at taking 280MHz from C-band satellite range of 3.7 to 4.2 GHz. Broadcasters using the spectrum are happy, willing to sell. Companies operating the satellites are furious.
The DOD operates high power radar from 2.9-3.65GHz. Clearing Fed users might be difficult. If federal incumbent users vacate the NTIA could turn over their portions of 3GHz. Funny, the FCC & NTIA agreed on a new Citizens Band of 3.55-3.7.
This could clear 3.1 to 4.2 GHz, with some guard bands and possibly a few remaining C-Band satellite channels. There's also consideration to repurpose some of 5.9GHz spectrum.
At the end of it all I picture mobile broadband networks using 560-758, 775-788, 817-851, 862-896 MHz, 1.85-1.9, 2.305-2.32, 2.345-2.36, 3.1 to 4.2 GHz, maybe more?

 

[INDY72]

Correct.

Let's keep in mind that the NYPD sought, and was granted, a waiver from the narrowbanding situation specifically because the cost involved. The FDNY is narrowbanded because they had ordered new radios early on which came narrowbanded.

The cost of this move to 700 (or anywhere else), in a limited amount of time, for a department like the NYPD, would be phenomenal, never mind the logistics of the phasing in of the new system.

Whoever wrote the letter looking for the waiver for the narrowbanding is probably writing one right now looking to pass this House legislation (although I'm sure that Elliot Engel has obviously gotten the word from 1 Police Plaza already).

Let's just say that all this 700 stuff is the "unintended consequences" of politicians trying to get their names in the papers after the World Trade Center, and let it all now wither on the vine and be forgotten about.

Also noting that NYPD is going pure P25 on their freqs over the next couple of years, so that takes care of any narrowbanding issues.. But until the "buyback" is settled things are still in the air.

 

[12dbsinad]

Correct.

Let's keep in mind that the NYPD sought, and was granted, a waiver from the narrowbanding situation specifically because the cost involved. The FDNY is narrowbanded because they had ordered new radios early on which came narrowbanded.

NYPD didn't sought anything. They basically told the FCC that they are NOT going to comply with Narrowbanding rules and if they didn't like it, they could go pound sand. NYPD has the power and lobbyist to do this. They know the FCC police aren't going to come in and shut the system down. The extension was simply a formality.

 

[radioman2001]

Quote"
And of course, what everyone forgets about, is that there is a lot more than just public safety in that band. There are lots of LMR business/industrial/and other similar users there as well.
The original law had no provisions for that. Those users aren't even mentioned. No requirement for them to move or anything. So how would that work?

Simple as of today no more renewals, even though my last renewal was only for 7 years not the normal 10. This was all planned from the beginning, but there area a lot of big players on both sides pushing back and forth. (NYPD said "what are they going to do take our frequencies away") not very likely and I don't think so. BTW 40mhz of 470 is basically useless for cell operations, too much range and too large a mobile antenna.

Quote"
The FDNY is narrowbanded because they had ordered new radios early on which came narrowbanded.

No all radios manufactured even today will do both with an entitlement key.