How can I knock down a Marine VHF broadcast?

j22Buffalo

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How can I knock down a Marine VHF broadcast?

I am putting together a hands-on emergency broadcast exercise as part of a damage control section of a safety at sea event this May (Hands On Safety At Sea Seminar at SUNY Maritime – Storm Trysail Club). We want to simulate emergency calls on ch16 and DSC calls, we want to do this on actual VHF radios and will be close to a busy commercial waterway.

Can I put an attenuator on the coaxial cable between the radio and antenna of each unit to minimize the broad cast range down to a short distance say 500 yards? For example considering 25W output will a 50-Watt N Connector Attenuator DC to 3GHz 50 Ohm (30dB) Amazon.com work? 30watt? 10watt? Etc ?
 

mmckenna

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I would think asking the USCG would get you an answer about even being allowed to use 16 and DSC in an exercise. You can use a specific DSC test code to test the radio but you are not allowed to use the emergency function

Yeah,
I would recommend starting with Sector New York and talk directly with them about what you want to do. They may have people that can directly answer your question, and maybe provide a person who can do a proper demo.

While a dummy load may work, I would not rely on it. The Rescue 21 system is designed to pick up a 1 watt hand held radio within a few miles of shore. The chances of their being a receive site close to you is pretty high, and even with a dummy load on the radio, they may still hear you. They will respond.

Their coverage map shows a radio site in Stamford, Conn, and another in Alpine, NJ. Both those are within a few miles of your location and it would be risky to rely on a dummy load. https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/images/marcomms/cgcomms/Rescue21/SecNY.jpg

Hobby radio sites are not the correct source of info on things like this, although you may find a lot of helpful people. I really, strongly, suggest contacting Sector New York.
 

prcguy

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I would use FRS radios and not VHF marine even with attenuators. It may be legal to do some of this on recreational channels 68, 69, 71, 72 and 78A but maybe not. I work with the USCG on various radio things and we have always used FRS for radio training and practice with the general public like administering boating safety tests or within the USCG AUX for radio simulation.
 

AK_SAR

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Absolutely what others said above: Talk to the USCG first thing.
A somewhat analogous situation came up here in Anchorage. A local business runs aviation crash survival classes. They had a big collection of expired flares and other emergency pyrotechnics that they wanted to use for demonstrations during their classes. They finally got approval but had to call the Merril Field control tower at the start of the demo. I believe the tower then made a general broadcast that any pyrotechnics in the Campbell Tract area were part of a test. When the demo was completed they had to call the tower again, who then made another announcement that the test was over.
 

prcguy

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Absolutely what others said above: Talk to the USCG first thing.
A somewhat analogous situation came up here in Anchorage. A local business runs aviation crash survival classes. They had a big collection of expired flares and other emergency pyrotechnics that they wanted to use for demonstrations during their classes. They finally got approval but had to call the Merril Field control tower at the start of the demo. I believe the tower then made a general announcement that any pyrotechnics in the Campbell Tract area were part of a test. When the demo was completed they had to call the tower again, who then made another announcement that the test was over.
While you might be able to contact the USCG and get permission to have mock emergencies on VHF marine, why put the USCG through on air announcements and all that? Just use something that is more appropriate and requires no permission.
 

hill

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I would think asking the USCG would get you an answer about even being allowed to use 16

You would never use Marine channel 16 for training as it needs to remain clear for it's intended purpose.

I could see training on another of the noncommercial channels at lower power between vessel, but probably wise just to use some other radio service.

When the USCG or USCG Auxiliary conduct two boat training each and every. radio transmissions during them always start out with "This us a drill".

All radio over the air radio training for this can be conducted over FRS or MURS radios.

For.DSC mostly I would just use videos and radio. could point out features on real Marine radio.
 

buddrousa

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When we did MAYDAY Training or any other Radio Training we used TA Channels notified 911 of the Training Exercise and All Radio Transmissions Started with and ended with This is a Training Drill.
 

Hit_Factor

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When we did MAYDAY Training or any other Radio Training we used TA Channels notified 911 of the Training Exercise and All Radio Transmissions Started with and ended with This is a Training Drill.
That's how we handled training. All radio transmissions start and end with 'this is a drill'. But, we never used the primary freqs/TGs for training, we had training freqs/Tgs.
 

j22Buffalo

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Thank you everyone for their input on how to run the training...but that was not my inquiry.

Was already planning on using FRS (walkie talkies) for the actual simulation exercises.

We are already working with Air Station Cape Code to have a rescue swimmer and rotary pilot at the event. Just trying to work through that when we already have contacts is a challenge let alone a blind call to Sector New York 1-800-info would be equivalent to going into a black hole.

What we want to demonstrate is the function of DSC to make an alert while monitoring 16 with the volume down. While sailing long distance most radios are turned down as to not disturb the off watch. A lot of offshore sailors are going to satellite for their distance communication needs, however that is one for one communication, in an emergency while out in blue water racing your likely source for assistance is a fellow competitor, thus the desire to demo DSC.

It is my understanding that there are a number of ways you can affect the distance a radio is able to transmit. Apologize if I don't have the correct terminology but you can do it by increasing the impedance in the wire between the radio and antenna, 16' of coaxial vs, 500'. Anyone have a number/idea of what length would drop the broadcast range down to a tenth of a mile at 25 W broadcast?

You can affect it with a cheep antenna, anyone have input/recommendation on that, specifically how to hamper an antenna.

Or can this also be acomplished with attenuator as orginally posted and if so what size?
 

hill

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It is my understanding that there are a number of ways you can affect the distance a radio is able to transmit. Apologize if I don't have the correct terminology but you can do it by increasing the impedance in the wire between the radio and antenna, 16' of coaxial vs, 500'. Anyone have a number/idea of what length would drop the broadcast range down to a tenth of a mile at 25 W broadcast?

This really doesn't sound like a good idea. By trying to use a bad antenna to reduce the output from the radio you will most likely damage the radio. Remember radios are designed to work with 50 ohm antenna systems and big mismatch can cause a lot reflected power back into radio that can destroy stuff in it like the final out transiter.

Also as discussed by Mckenna reduced out still has a good chance of received out side the area with receive site near, plus they are optimized to receive weak signals.

Radios already have a way to reduce output by using the 1 watt setting
 

mmckenna

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It is my understanding that there are a number of ways you can affect the distance a radio is able to transmit. Apologize if I don't have the correct terminology but you can do it by increasing the impedance in the wire between the radio and antenna, 16' of coaxial vs, 500'. Anyone have a number/idea of what length would drop the broadcast range down to a tenth of a mile at 25 W broadcast?

Or can this also be acomplished with attenuator as orginally posted and if so what size?

Increasing impedance isn't the term I think you are looking for. What it sounds like is that you want to induce so much loss in the cable that there isn't enough signal to be received anywhere other than within a few feet.

There are some things you have control over, and some you do not.
Yes, longer lengths of coaxial cable will increase signal loss. The amount of loss depends on:
Exact cable type.
Cable length
Frequency (156.800 in your case)

You could use enough cable to drop the signal down low enough that it wouldn't radiate worth a crap. You could technically plug right into the back of another radio and have a nearly closed loop.

600-700 feet of cheap RG-58 coax would result in enough attenuation that a 25 watt radio would put out somewhere around 0.009 watts at the far end. That will probably be safe for the receiving radio, but it's not a great idea.
There are companies that will sell 1000 foot reels of RG-58, and it'll run you a few hundred dollars. Then you'll need to install connectors, and you'll need to do it right so there's no leakage.

But there's things you do not have control over, like the sensitivity of the receiving set up at the radio site. While you may be able to attenuate the signal enough to make this work, any leakage from the cable (there will be some) would make it possible to be received.
You also don't have control over other boaters that may be close enough to hear all this, and may call it in to the Coast Guard.

Other option is to buy an RF attenuator that would let you connect the radios together, but it's going to cost you about as much as all that coax and it is still not without risk.



That's about as far as I'm going to go with this. Maybe someone else will feel like linking you to specific products.
Personally, I think what you are trying to do here is well meaning, but you are ignoring several knowledgeable people that are trying to tell you this is an exceptionally bad idea and it's very irresponsible.

What you are doing runs the risk of triggering a system that will deploy a lot of people and assets to respond. None of those people do that job without risk. The amount of money wasted on fuel and manpower comes from somewhere. So, essentially you would be putting first responders lives at risk and possibly wasting taxpayer dollars rather than just show a You Tube video, or ask the USCG if they have a better way of demonstrating how this works.
 

prcguy

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Every marine radio has a 1w position and you can get a 40dB 2w rated attenuator pretty cheap. Stick a small rubber duck antenna on that and with the resulting -10dBm signal it won't go very far, like maybe a few hundred yards. Here is a 40dB attenuator for $22 with free shipping.

 

hill

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What you are doing runs the risk of triggering a system that will deploy a lot of people and assets to respond. None of those people do that job without risk. The amount of money wasted on fuel and manpower comes from somewhere. So, essentially you would be putting first responders lives at risk and possibly wasting taxpayer dollars rather than just show a You Tube video, or ask the USCG if they have a better way of demonstrating how this works.

If USCG units are deployed and it's determined to be a false call they can try to recover some costs from the parties involved. The cost per hour to operate small boats, cutters, helos and aircraft are high. Please see some of costs in linked document below.

 

kc2asb

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Every marine radio has a 1w position and you can get a 40dB 2w rated attenuator pretty cheap. Stick a small rubber duck antenna on that and with the resulting -10dBm signal it won't go very far, like maybe a few hundred yards.
Why take the chance?
 

AJAT

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Transmitting a false distress call, which is what you are planning on doing, is a class D felony. You can fined 5,000 dollars plus any costs incurred in the response. If you want to risk the financial burden and have a felony conviction just to train someone I guess that is your call. I am a retired Coastie, 26 years, 19 of those years were at sea, it was never fun wasting time and money chasing false distress calls.
 

kc2asb

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, it was never fun wasting time and money chasing false distress calls.
Even more importantly, the risk of injury to CG personnel and diverting resources from a legitimate distress call. For the OP's luck, a CG vessel would be passing nearby at the time and pick up the "knocked down" false distress call.
 
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