CanesFan95
Active Member
Seems like anytime I've listen to something conventional on a ham rig, you get better reception/signal strength than on a scanner with comparable antennas in the same location. How come?
How Come Ham Radios Receieve Better Than Scanners?
- Thread starter CanesFan95
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I would guess it is because the ham radio you are using is built to cover a small portion of the VHF/UHF spectrum where a scanner needs to be wide enough to cover typically from 25MHz to 1300MHz.
The Ham Radio is tuned and built to primarily cover the VHF and UHF Ham spectrum. That is its only job (unless there is some out of band reception.)
The Ham Radio is tuned and built to primarily cover the VHF and UHF Ham spectrum. That is its only job (unless there is some out of band reception.)
nd5y
Member
Scanners are consumer grade junk. Amateur radios are a step above consumer grade junk.
A lot of it is the antenna. A ham radio antenna has to be tuned to a fairly narrow frequency range to TX efficiently and keep SWR below 2:1. Scanner antennas are RX only, and anything below 10:1 is usually deemed "good enough", especially for handhelds, where the tuning of the antenna constantly changes depending on how you're holding the scanner, nearby metal, etc.
That's actually not it at all. An APX8000 or a Harris Unity XG-100P covers VHF, UHF, 700 MHz and 800 MHz just like a 'top of the line' consumer-grade scanner and performs far better. Heck, those radios actually cover a far wider frequency range than say a Uniden BC75XLT.
The short answer to the question is simply that consumer-grade scanners use cheaper parts and engineering than a high quality commercial radio, especially a radio designed for public safety use. It isn't even just about cost - clearly Unication is able to design, build and sell a higher quality P25 trunking receiver than Uniden or Whistler is, and Unication actually charges less. I can only assume it is a supply and demand issue; most scanner listeners have never really demanded a high quality receiver, whereas a public safety professional would never tolerate the simulcast distortion prevalent in consumer scanner toys, so the scanner brands don't bother to make and sell a decent device (although the SDS100 is a very nice improvement over all P25 scanners to date).
I simply gave up on the crappy consumer-grade scanner toys for most of my monitoring once BKRadio introduced a "RX Only" mode in their software (avoiding the need for system keys if all you want to do is listen) and once the Unication G5 hit the market. There is no replacing my SDS100 for functions like Discovery Mode, but I primarily do my daily scanning with a properly-designed BKRadio KNG2-P800 and a Unication G5, each of which use quality engineering and components to produce a much higher quality receiver.
I've followed the same approach for non-public safety functions too. I gave up on trying to actually hear aviation communications well on a consumer grade scanner toy and just bought a Yaesu FTA-250 for that purpose.
Of course, if you really want (or can only afford) a single radio to do all things, you're going to have to stick with a consumer scanner toy. But don't expect it to work as well. You could combine a dishwasher and a toaster too, but the bread will be soggy. This really is the radio equivalent of the old adage about getting and using the right tool for the job. Bang on a screwdriver with a hammer and you can make a hole, but I'd advise investing in a drill.
Neither the Unications or any of the professional 2-way radios cover 25-1300MHz like the upper-tier Unidens do. The Uniden BC75XLT covers less bandwidth, but it also only costs $100 brand new--far cheaper than even the Unications.
The Motorola APX8000 radios you mentioned start around $4500, and options can add $1000 or more on top of that. And that doesn't include the programming software. If you're going to pay >6 times as much for a radio, it better perform better than the less-expensive model. And programaming an APX8000 for non-affiliate scan is not something the average scanner hobbyist can do, even if they had the programming software.
A better price comparison is with the Unications. But the Unications are only dual-band--7/800MHz and either VHF, or a section of UHF (4 ranges available). They're tri-band if you count 700MHz and 800MHz as separate bands.
Is a Ferrari a nicer car than a Ford? Sure. But do you really need one to commute to work? In most cases, probably not. IMO the same principle applies to the difference between a SDS100 and an APX8000.
The Unidens will also do things that none of the Unications or professional 2-way radios will do. Going on a cross-country road trip, and want to scan local traffic as you go? With a Uniden and a GPS, it's a piece of cake. With a Unication or an APX, not so much...
The Motorola APX8000 radios you mentioned start around $4500, and options can add $1000 or more on top of that. And that doesn't include the programming software. If you're going to pay >6 times as much for a radio, it better perform better than the less-expensive model. And programaming an APX8000 for non-affiliate scan is not something the average scanner hobbyist can do, even if they had the programming software.
A better price comparison is with the Unications. But the Unications are only dual-band--7/800MHz and either VHF, or a section of UHF (4 ranges available). They're tri-band if you count 700MHz and 800MHz as separate bands.
Is a Ferrari a nicer car than a Ford? Sure. But do you really need one to commute to work? In most cases, probably not. IMO the same principle applies to the difference between a SDS100 and an APX8000.
The Unidens will also do things that none of the Unications or professional 2-way radios will do. Going on a cross-country road trip, and want to scan local traffic as you go? With a Uniden and a GPS, it's a piece of cake. With a Unication or an APX, not so much...
eorange
♦Insane Asylum Premium Member♦
Like hum incessantly, and fail with cold solder joints and broken battery door clips?
Couldn't resist, but...there is truth to that as to why people choose commercial radios. I also prefer a radio that does one thing extraordinarily well, instead of one that tries to do everything with varying success.Back to the OP's question -> Not sure if you're talking VHF/UHF, or HF. HF ham rigs always perform better than communication receiver handhelds. My FT-60 had stellar VHF and UHF receive comparable to anything. But my VX-3R, while good on VHF, can't compare to a decent scanner.
slicerwizard
Member
I doubt it. Do they cover ~25 MHz to ~ 1GHz with pretty much no gaps? They only do teeny tiny slices of 700. No UHF milair, and so on. So their coverage is nothing like most scanners.
Ubbe
Member
Simulcast reception
Many talk about how some consumer scanners can get overloaded and confused when receiving simulcast systems. I do understand why that happens. So here comes the dumb question: Why does a public safety radio not suffer the same issues? What is the difference between the receive for a first...
slicerwizard
Member
Hm, I don't think the OP's question has anything to do with simulcast.
N8IAA
Member
It doesn't. His question was answered in post #2.
What we see in the posts that follow, is the typical tunnel vision of the 'spurts that populate RR.
Everything is a "simulcast" issue that only the SDS's can fix.
Not everything is simulcast like 'those supposedly in the know' believe. I have used my ham radios for decades as scanners because they work better than any scanner I have, or have owned on conventional analog frequencies.
There is a poster in one of the forums that sold his digital scanners and got two analog conventional scanners with money left over.
Take the blinders off 'spurts, and read what posters are actually saying. Stop with the kangaroo mindset. It's become a trend that is hurting this website.
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MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Some ham radio gear (especially the mid late 80s and 90s higher end model) VHF/UHF transceivers have things like helical filtering on the front end and Murata IF filters that result in excellent intermod rejection and superior sensitivity specs. I have a Kenwood TM-721A from 1989 that has one of the best VHF and UHF receivers, and yes, even more sensitive than an APX8500 sitting right next to it.
Ham gear is generally (but not always) designed for high RF performance.
Ham gear is generally (but not always) designed for high RF performance.
Look in the mirror. Only one post in this entire thread has even a vague resemblance to what you just said.
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majoco
Stirrer
Simple answer - because they cost a lot more.
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So I just dropped into this thread on Monday afternoon and I apologize for skimming over the thread. I knew the answer all along. So when I saw majoco's reply and it said exactly what I was going to say. All I could do was like it. No disrespect to any other reply of those I know and respect but...
bill4long
Member
In that case, Uniden and Whistler should definitely raise the prices of their current scanner models substantially, so that they will start working better. Or maybe they could have a system where each customer pays the price they want to pay for the same model, so that they each get the quality of receiver they are willing to pay for. Or maybe if you pay one price but find it doesn't receive well enough for you, you could send in a few hundred dollars more so that your scanner will start working better.
eorange
♦Insane Asylum Premium Member♦
That's actually happening now with shipping costs back to the repair center.
Ubbe
Member
The thread explains the difference in performance between scanners and professional gear, that are not only related to simulcast but to general reception quality.
/Ubbe
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