how do we protect ourselves on DMR

Status
Not open for further replies.

teufler

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,365
Location
ST PETERS, MISSOURI
Most of the new dmr radios allow you to enter DMR id codes on the fly., Any id will do, even your own whether you are on line or not. The other night, someone came on with an id that belonged to someone who was on the air at that moment. Obviously it was a bogus operator but he rant between the two was like I remember in my cb days of 40 years ago. A bogus operator with a working id, could lay waste to dmr groups world wide. The blame coming back to the real id and it would be for them to prove innocent. A system administator might be able to trace the ip address but if a vpn service was used, they would be hidden from their actual ip address. I wonder if some kind of password could be setup that would say hide some of your dmr id. DM MARC gives us a multiple digit id, that we enter to the radio, but if there were additional numbers that would not be displayed but were necessary for entry, this would protect the actual id user. Maybe numbers from your personnel radio. Something that we would transmit but not be shown over our radios like pesently the dmr database provides. The radio would hold ALL the number that was given but others when they receive, would only display the numbers we presently have.

Just thinking what could work.
 
Last edited:

NC1

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
617
Location
Surry County, North Carolina
I don't know why the real operator would have to prove himself innocent. The way it works is the guilt has to be proven before assigning the blame. You can't prove you did not do something, it is fairly common knowledge that you cannot prove a negative.

That issue aside, everyone knows that with anything new and innovative there are going to be unintended consequences, both positive and negative. This is going to be one of those negative consequences at least for a while. I could go on and on about this on a much broader scale but I have things to do.
 

Thunderknight

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
1,971
Location
Bletchley Park
People have been using call signs not assigned to them in the analog world too, it's nothing new to DMR. It's not uncommon for big DXpeditions to have others on the bands spoofing them.
 

GTR8000

NYS Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
9,286
Location
BEE00
You can't prove you did not do something, it is fairly common knowledge that you cannot prove a negative.
Actually, you can most certainly prove that you did not do something, and "you cannot prove a negative" is false logic. Google the phrase in quotes and read some articles from noteworthy sources and you'll quickly realize that this so-called "common knowledge' is actually a common misconception.

If someone accuses you of transmitting on a repeater in Los Angeles, but you can prove that you were in Boston at the time, you have proven that you did not do something. Otherwise known as an alibi. :wink:
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
12,127
Location
VA
It's no different than people using someone else's call sign in the analog world. Yes, it happens, but it's not a problem that will end civilization as we know it.
 

NC1

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
617
Location
Surry County, North Carolina
Actually, you can most certainly prove that you did not do something, and "you cannot prove a negative" is false logic. Google the phrase in quotes and read some articles from noteworthy sources and you'll quickly realize that this so-called "common knowledge' is actually a common misconception.

If someone accuses you of transmitting on a repeater in Los Angeles, but you can prove that you were in Boston at the time, you have proven that you did not do something. Otherwise known as an alibi. :wink:
According to our laws here, it is up to the accuser to prove that the accused committed the act. Even without an alibi, nothing can really be done. There is circumstantial evidence, and a preponderance of evidence (neither of which I believe has not been met), and then there is solid proof.

But we are way off topic and I will not pursue the subject any longer.
 

paulears

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
387
Location
Lowestoft - UK
It's a flaw in the perfect world that doesn't exist.

Let's say you are a novice - like many of the nice guys we have on the forum asking questions like, how do I access a repeater, getting told about offsets and CTCSS and vanishing because it's too hard. You download a code plug - which often have the originators, or last editors callsign in them - and you turn them on and they work. Who tells them to send off their licence details to get a legit ID? Which incidentally is NOT something your local Government allocate, it's just a gentlemen agreement. It is perfectly legal to use your callsign and a random ID. You break no licence rules and nobody has any power to ban you from accessing a system, as was talked about recently when somebody took legal action on access.

If they use my callsign and ID when I come out of a repeater in the US - is this an OFCOM licence matter or the FCCs? If everyone is connected via IP, then do I only become illegal in the city the repeater/node is in? I really cannot see my own OFCOM in the UK being worried by my callsign being used illegally in the US.

The rules are lagging years behind the technology.
 

teufler

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,365
Location
ST PETERS, MISSOURI
I guess it is best to figure out how do we protect our id, thats a number that was created for each of us. Its with that number, we get access to the dmr systems. How can we restrict that number only to us. A call sign, that is a verbal thing but the dmr id, thats an electronic number that controls access . I am tghinking that this number is 10 characters instead of the present 7. 7 still show up , whn we have the database in our radios but the radio transmits 10 or more. Just something that the radio transmits but is not displayed. This would take care of the transmissions that were bogus. The present 7 digits identifys each individual but the radio transmits something that is unique and without that, access would be denied.
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
12,127
Location
VA
The 10-digit version of the number is still transmitted in the clear over the air. Every radio in range still sees the full 10-digit number being broadcast.

You are wasting everyone's time. It is mathematically impossible to have a secure authentication system when all identifying information is broadcast in the clear or available publicly. You have to have non-public ID information for each user, and a secure encrypted information path between the user and the identity authenticator. Basically an RSA public/private keypair for each user, and a SSL-style secured channel to the network access authentication entity. Given the rabidly anti-encryption attitude common among hams, forget about that happening any time soon.

This is not a new problem, and it cannot be solved unless encryption is used.
 

teufler

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,365
Location
ST PETERS, MISSOURI
JONWIENKE: You are right, also I have came up with a posting on another web site, that was first printed in 2016, basically the same question I have. I should have Googled my question first. Still doesn't me wish that a more secure id system was available but at the present there is not.
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
12,127
Location
VA
It is exactly as (in)secure as using verbal call signs on FM. Ham radio simply isn't designed for secure user authentication.
 

kayn1n32008

ØÆS, I put that shØt on everything.
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
6,170
Location
Sector 001
It's no different than people using someone else's call sign in the analog world. Yes, it happens, but it's not a problem that will end civilization as we know it.


Happens all the time. I occasionally receive QSL cards from operators I have not actually worked. Not much you can do about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
3,565
Location
Texas
I can think of a way to do it...but the keyword is affiliation and the way I can think of to do it is a proprietary standard.
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
12,127
Location
VA
Affiliation involves cryptographic authentication.
 

teufler

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,365
Location
ST PETERS, MISSOURI
We have a radio serial number. Somehow if the serial number would be transmitted, that would solve bogus operators from using our id's. The id would just be part of ouir signal, wouldn't show on the radio.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top