How Far Away Are We From An HT Sized Device That Accesses Digital Talkgroups Without The Hotspot or RF?

[JASII]

As posted above, how far away are we from a portable, HT sized device that accesses digital talkgroups without the hotspot?

Right now, you can use a DVMEGA Cast, provide it with power and internet, either by wifi or a network cable, and access DMR, YSF and D-Star. It is not HT sized, however.

I have heard rumblings that the Boxchip S900A Plus may soon have an option to directly access Brandmeister DMR talkgroups with their HT.

Could Yaesu follow suit on their YSF devices in the future? Allow existing feature, but add Android smartphone functionality to allow you to access the system without a hotspot, either with wifi or cellular connectivity built into it.

What about Icom? Will they likely follow suit, too, and allow this type of access? I am quite certain that there are, or will be, some strong feelings/emotions both ways on this.

What about the GMRS folks? Why not offer a GMRS/FRS radio that also allows access to Zello, including the Zello GMRS channel? It would give quite a bit more functionality. Think about it, FRS/GMRS simplex for close range and access to network channels through wifi or an on-board SIM card through the cellular network.

I can imagine the responses from some. "It's not 'real' radio!" Okay, haven't we heard that same argument over the years when the folks on AM were skeptical of SSB? What about the peeps that enjoyed simplex FM, but felt that analog FM repeaters would "ruin" the hobby?

 

[Hit_Factor]

I can connect to reflectors with my DStar HTs on a local repeater, same with a fusion HT.


My local GMRS repeater can be accessed by radio or zello.

Maybe you meant a single multi-protocol device?

I'm not too excited about DMR, difficult to keep up with what's seems like regular changes.

 

[JASII]

I can connect to reflectors with my DStar HTs on a local repeater, same with a fusion HT.


My local GMRS repeater can be accessed by radio or zello.

Maybe you meant a single multi-protocol device?

But, you need for being near the repeater. Say I am in a State Forest where I go ATVing. There is no DMR repeater close. Even if I had a Yagi and a 100 watts. Yes, I CAN do it with an HT and a hotspot, but eliminate the hotspot and build that functionality into an HT. The HT would access the internet, either via wifi or with a cellular SIM card built in.


And, yes, a single device with multiple digital protocols would be sweet. Imagine an HT, that does what the DVMEGA Cast does, in an HT form factor and also have 2 watts for simplex.

 

[Hit_Factor]

Some of our Federal & State Forest & Federal lack cell coverage. I guess that's why satphones exist.

I agree it would be nice. But I think market forces decide what will be, this is the old betamax vs VHS. The best tech may not prevail.

I think there will always be competing technologies that do roughly the same thing with a proprietary twist.

Zello was a good emergency comm in PR after the hurricane, I don't know how it was implemented.

I bet Icom will be the first to explore the market in ways similar to what you envision. It's about time they upgrade to DStar 2.0 anyway. Yeasu still suffers limited naming conventions in their menu systems and memory. DMR suffers from a fragmented market ranging from CCR to big M.

 

[vagrant]

Where I have gone in a State Forrest, I am able to TX/RX on a repeater over a significantly larger area where cellular service is not available. Those repeaters are connected to the Wires-X, DMR, or D-Star network where I am at, but other areas may not be. Additionally, WiFi/Internet service coverage is less than cellular. What you are looking for would have a better chance to be used in a heavily populated area where cellular or WiFi service is more readily available.

This hotspot-HT I presume will use WiFi to connect to a router and would need to stay connected in order TX/RX constantly to hold the connection. That is going to pull on the battery. The further from the router, the more power will be required to TX. Bluetooth could be an option if using a cellular phone to make the Internet connection. Still, this hotspot-HT would need to constantly TX/RX even if it had a SIM for cellular connectivity.

I prefer having a hotspot device with a dedicated battery. The OpenSpot3 fulfills that. Additionally, there is no way Icom and Yaesu are going to build in the ability to connect their preferred digital modes to another. That will come from elsewhere when it does happen. If it does, I expect the device to come directly from SharkRF first. They're probably a heartbeat away from announcing such a device already.

 

[mmckenna]

What about the GMRS folks? Why not offer a GMRS/FRS radio that also allows access to Zello, including the Zello GMRS channel? It would give quite a bit more functionality. Think about it, FRS/GMRS simplex for close range and access to network channels through wifi or an on-board SIM card through the cellular network.

There are products on the commercial side that will do this. A 2 way radio with a SIM card or two that allows connection to LTE networks.

But maybe I'm not understanding what you are asking. You either need some sort of network access (cellular/LTE/WiFI) or you need two way radio connection to a repeater/gateway.

 

[vagrant]

Can you provide a make/model number of two or three commercial radios that are FRS/GMRS type accepted, or not, that have the SIM card connection ability? Can you also discern which are type accepted or not along with their respective costs, as well as the program software licensing costs? FRS/GMRS radios are likely to be for personal use, so simply accepting those fees as part of "doing business" would not be expected...and probably not acceptable. Of course there is still the added cost of LTE network use. Still, the more you know. Thank you.

 

[MTS2000des]

all of this will mean a subscriber with certified LTE boards approved by all carriers, this also means a data plan attached to your HT. Most hams are cheap, and complain that an HT costs more than $200.

To put it in perspective, Motorola Solutions APX NEXT all band portable with LTE/WiFi STARTS at around $7500- with all bands active and LTE on board, looking at close to $10,000.

It still requires connectivity to an Astro 25 core and managed services to function.

Applying the same methodology to an amateur grade product would put it in the $1000-1500 ball park. And managed services to connect to a server to route traffic would get out of the "free" model currently enjoyed today with Pi-Stars, OpenSpots, etc. Nevermind the data plan from the telecom cartel of your choice to power the LTE side.

Not enough market for a company to make it economically viable.

 

[mmckenna]

Can you provide a make/model number of two or three commercial radios that are FRS/GMRS type accepted, or not, that have the SIM card connection ability? Can you also discern which are type accepted or not along with their respective costs, as well as the program software licensing costs? FRS/GMRS radios are likely to be for personal use, so simply accepting those fees as part of "doing business" would not be expected...and probably not acceptable. Of course there is still the added cost of LTE network use. Still, the more you know. Thank you.

I can't comment on the GMRS certification, as I don't have the FCC ID's and I really don't want to go looking them up.
But, yeah, expensive, no doubt about that, and going to be out of the reach of most hobbyists.
But the radios do exist, and more have been hitting the market on the public safety side for the last year or two. Motorola, Harris, etc. And more on the way. I suspect that there would have been more rolled out at the now cancelled IWCE.

None of the current radios are really within the reach of most hobbyists, add in cost of software, programming cable, cellular data service, etc. and what not.
But the technology is there. There are some low tier Chinese LTE radios hitting the market also, not long before they cram the innards from a BaoFeng in one of those. (if they haven't already)

 

[mmckenna]

all of this will mean a subscriber with certified LTE boards approved by all carriers, this also means a data plan attached to your HT. Most hams are cheap, and complain that an HT costs more than $200.


Not enough market for a company to make it economically viable.

This and This.

Until the CCR companies start churning out a product with a cheap LTE module and a cheap VHF/UHF module in it, there really are not a lot of options that are within range of the average hobbyists. But then again, there are hams with APX-8000's, so….

But the products exist on the LMR side now. And the Chinese CCR's are making such products, just not currently in the same box. I'm sure that'll change shortly.

There have been some really low tier cellphone/UHF radios built, so probably just need the software written to do it.

 

[JASII]

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[kb9mwr]

Or just use this software on your existing device(s)

Software to RX/TX D-STAR, DMR, Fusion YSF, NXDN, and P25 reflectors and repeaters/gateways over UDP

nostar/dudestar

Software to RX/TX D-STAR, DMR, Fusion YSF, NXDN, and P25 reflectors and repeaters/gateways over UDP - nostar/dudestar

github.com

 

[wowologist]

Um are you looking at like this thing? ( A18 Android Mobile Radio 4.22 Dual SIM GPS Zello 3G Touch Screen Radio with UHF | eBay ) ther are many many different incantations and they've been out for a couple of years now.

 

[KD8DVR]

I can imagine the responses from some. "It's not 'real' radio!" Okay, haven't we heard that same argument over the years when the folks on AM were skeptical of SSB? What about the peeps that enjoyed simplex FM, but felt that analog FM repeaters would "ruin" the hobby?

"Real Radio" (as always, in my opinion) is use of an amateur radio transceiver on amateur radio frequencies. As long as that applies, it is real radio. This includes hotspots, as they are amateur radio transceivers.

Without an amateur radio transceiver in the mix.. it is NOT amateur radio.

 

[JASII]

"Real Radio" (as always, in my opinion) is use of an amateur radio transceiver on amateur radio frequencies. As long as that applies, it is real radio. This includes hotspots, as they are amateur radio transceivers.

Without an amateur radio transceiver in the mix.. it is NOT amateur radio.

I suspect that many amateur radio operators will agree with you. I have used several different Motorola transceivers over the years on VHF or UHF FM or APCO P25 repeaters. Were they "amateur radio transceivers"? Nope, not in my way of thinking.

My DVMEGA Cast is an IP radio. I am using it, via the internet, to access DMR, D-Star, and Fusion. Is it amateur radio?

 

[vagrant]

I would consider it amateur radio and give my callsign every 10, even if I was IP only to wherever. Other amateurs may be connecting to those talkgroups via RF, even if they're only using very low power.

IP connectivity is simply enjoying the multifaceted aspect of amateur radio. It is that versatility which brings many to the hobby.

 

[AK9R]

I would consider it amateur radio and give my callsign every 10, even if I was IP only to wherever. Other amateurs may be connecting to those talkgroups via RF...

To which I would say that identification of their transmitter is their problem, not yours. Since you are not transmitting over amateur radio, but over an IP connection, you are not transmitting in the amateur radio service and the amateur radio identification rules do not apply to you...only to the station that is relaying your IP communications to amateur radio. Just my opinion.

 

[Hit_Factor]

This is a tangent on this thread.

DStar and Fusion have the callsign embedded in the transmission. I understand that the FCC agrees this is sufficient, but it feels odd to not ID, most operators do it anyway on DStar and Fusion.

 

[vagrant]

Opinions are fine until uncle Charlie knocks at your door. It happened to me decades ago. Still, following the rules gives me piece of mind.

What is weird for me is when using commercial or licensed by rule radios and remembering I need not to ID.

 

[mmckenna]

To which I would say that identification of their transmitter is their problem, not yours. Since you are not transmitting over amateur radio, but over an IP connection, you are not transmitting in the amateur radio service and the amateur radio identification rules do not apply to you...only to the station that is relaying your IP communications to amateur radio. Just my opinion.

I think that's a tricky approach.
Someone who wanted to bend the rules could easily say that they didn't need an amateur license to use these sorts of IP based links, yet still have access to the amateur radio bands. Sure, the burden is on the guy who is responsible for the RF transmitter, but expecting them to keep unlicensed people out is a tall order. I know the big IP linking platforms require a ham ticket, but…..