How to determine P25 tone out tones?

[djbisme]

Our local Fire Departments get toned out digitally over the Michigan MPSCS P25 system. I don't hear any tones from either my G5 or SDS100 when they receive a call. Is there a way to determine what these tones are and program them into the G5? Or do I have to get them from someone on the FD or radio company that programmed them (which would be tough)?

 

[Webodisk]

There is an app for android and iOS called radio ID does a great job

 

[N6ML]

If you can't hear tones, the app won't do you any good. It's probably not actually tones, but P25 messages sent to specific subscriber IDs. You may be able to program those and alert on them. I don't know enough about how P25 paging works to make specific suggestions....

 

[KevinC]

Since you hear no tones I wonder if they are alerted via Call Alert?

 

[djbisme]

I found this PPT online that describes the Michigan MPSCS system and paging. It sounds like this region uses TG based paging for the Unication pagers. I thought each dept would have it's own TG in this case - but all the paging (voice portion at least) comes out over the main dispatch Talkgroup for the county. Still stumped.... =)
DTMB Powerpoint Template - 2015 (michigan.gov)

 

[mikewazowski]

Are you sure they aren’t patching the main Dispatch talkgroup with the paging talkgroup?

 

[djbisme]

Are you sure they aren’t patching the main Dispatch talkgroup with the paging talkgroup?

Not sure, is that a common practice? There is no specific TG listed in RR for 'Berrien Springs', for instance (or some of the other local depts that get dispatched this way). Would there be a different paging TG for each specific dept?

 

[Loopy1]

It's entirely likely. In true P25 paging the pager listens for traffic on a specific dedicated TG. The pager records that traffic, alerts the user, then plays back the recorded message. What the responder hears from the pager is not in real time. The paging TG's are also usually patched to the main dispatch channel. While codacs have gotten better over the years they are optimized for human speech and have trouble accurately reproducing the analog tones used in legacy pagers.

 

[wa8pyr]

It's entirely likely. In true P25 paging the pager listens for traffic on a specific dedicated TG. The pager records that traffic, alerts the user, then plays back the recorded message. What the responder hears from the pager is not in real time. The paging TG's are also usually patched to the main dispatch channel.

There is no "true P25 paging" but rather various ways it can be done, all of which are holdovers from earlier types of systems: Call Alert from the console, dedicated per-agency talkgroup, and paging over P25. All are real-time but each has drawbacks.

Unication G4/G5 pagers work great with any of the above methods.

If the OP isn't hearing any tones, what is likely happening is that alerting is being done on an agency-specific talkgroup.

While codacs have gotten better over the years they are optimized for human speech and have trouble accurately reproducing the analog tones used in legacy pagers.

This was true for the older generation P25 radios but is not quite true anymore. Analog tone reproduction from the AMBE+2 vocoders (which have been around for several years at this point) is quite good, and paging over P25 is becoming a thing.

 

[djbisme]

If the OP isn't hearing any tones, what is likely happening is that alerting is being done on an agency-specific talkgroup.

Do you know of a way to determine what the agency-specific TGs might be? I also have an SDS100 which can be setup to monitor all TGs on a control channel (I think).

 

[djbisme]

Doing some more digging - it appears there are some paging specific TGs in use. But these are the only ones listed here on RR. I don't monitor these specific TGs, but I do hear their dispatches on the main TG3130 channel. Maybe each dept does have it's own specific paging TG and the others just aren't listed?

13747​	35b3	11FDBHC	D	Benton Harbor City Fire Page	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County 11 Fire
13963​	368b	11FDSTJ	D	St Joseph Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County 11 Fire
23134​	5a5e	11FDLINC	D	Lincoln Township Fire Page	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County 11 Fire

Maybe I can setup my SDS100 to monitor just these TGs and see what traffic is on them - then see if it is replicated on the main dispatch TG3130?

 

[chief21]

It is also common for agencies to use a separate analog frequency for paging.

 

[MidwestRadioListener]

Any chance they could be dispatched primarily using the network out of CAD then as a backup doing Call Alert, tones, etc over p25? Lots of places seem like they are paging via network now a days around my area.

 

[wa8pyr]

Any chance they could be dispatched primarily using the network out of CAD then as a backup doing Call Alert, tones, etc over p25? Lots of places seem like they are paging via network now a days around my area.

If there are no tones that's a definite possibility, but only for a full-time department; wouldn't work for volunteers requiring tone-out.

 

[krokus]

If your area does tone out like Washtenaw County, there are dispatch TG, and separate TG called PageGroups. The PG are specific to the agency, with most agencies having more than one PG assigned. (There could one per station, one for all-call, there is one for county-wide alerts, etc.)

The audio for the dispatch is carried on the PG, and the primary dispatch for that agency. If multiple agencies are being dispatched to the same event, the call is multi-selected, to all appropriate TG & PG.

 

[djbisme]

If your area does tone out like Washtenaw County, there are dispatch TG, and separate TG called PageGroups. The PG are specific to the agency, with most agencies having more than one PG assigned. (There could one per station, one for all-call, there is one for county-wide alerts, etc.)

The audio for the dispatch is carried on the PG, and the primary dispatch for that agency. If multiple agencies are being dispatched to the same event, the call is multi-selected, to all appropriate TG & PG.

Yes, I finally figured out this is how Berrien County MI is doing their paging. Each agency has a separate/specific PageGroup (Talk Group). They are paged on these TGs, then all traffic is on the main fire (F911) TG.

I was able to setup my SDS100 in discovery mode, monitoring just my local CC. I setup an 'uber' favorite list with all the known TGs in it already, then set the discovery to just log the new 'unknown' TGs. After letting it run for a few days I was able to figure out the PageGroup numbering scheme (they are in the 12000's).

I have a table of most of the page TGs now for our county - should these be added to the RR database? I can add them to this thread as well in case anyone else is interested.

 

[wa8pyr]

I have a table of most of the page TGs now for our county - should these be added to the RR database? I can add them to this thread as well in case anyone else is interested.

If they're confirmed, by all means please submit them.

 

[djbisme]

If they're confirmed, by all means please submit them.

What do you mean by "confirmed"? I have verified that they are correct, is that enough? I haven't submitted anything yet, I'll have to look for the process.

 

[wa8pyr]

What do you mean by "confirmed"? I have verified that they are correct, is that enough?

Yes, that should be fine.

Verification means that the talkgroup(s) have been monitored and the agency and usage confirmed. We occasionally get people who will simply submit logs from software scanning programs which simply vomit out logs of everything they see, but that provides no verification of agency or usage.

I haven't submitted anything yet, I'll have to look for the process.

Just go the the database page for the trunked system in question (MPSCS), and look for the "Submit" tab at the top.

 

[djbisme]

Here are the paging talk groups for Berrien County, Michigan, for those following the thread:

Decimal	Hex	Alpha Tag	Mode	Description	Tag	Category
13251	33C3	13251	D	Niles City Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
13747	35B3	11FDBHC	D	Benton Harbor City Fire Page	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
13963	368B	11FDSTJ	D	St Joseph Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
13979	369B		D	New Buffalo Twp Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23126	5A56	23126	D	Buchanan City Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23127	5A57	23127	D	Bertrand Twp Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23128	5A58	23128	D	Bertrand&Buchanan Twp Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23130	5A5A	BSOFD	D	Berrien Springs Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23131	5A5B	23131	D	Benton Twp Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23134	5A5E	11FDLINC	D	Lincoln Township Fire Page	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23135	5A5F	23135	D	Chicaming Fire First Resp Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23138	5A62	23138	D	North Berrien Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23140	5A64	23140	D	Niles Twp Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23150	5A6E	23150	D	Three Oaks Amb Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23151	5A6F	23151	D	Three Oaks Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23152	5A70	23152	D	Weesaw Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging
23153	5A71	WFD	D	Watervliet Fire Paging	Fire Dispatch	Berrien County Paging