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How to tell if DMR system is really Cap+

trunker

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Programmed a OTF system found in the RR database and it says it's Cap+ but I don't see "CAP" in the display, only "DMR" (BCD436).
Calvin College
Seems to be trunking fine (verified by also scanning as conv system).
I do get a data burst right before initial transmission as conventional (but no other bursts) and there is no control channel.
System in the database was last updated 4 years ago so could be a mistake?

Is there any other way to tell if the system is really Cap+ other than what the radio displays?
 

mtindor

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If It were me and I were wanting to verify whether it was conventional DMR, CAP+ or CON+ I would program all four frequencies as a trunked DMR system, and then I would use LCN Finder (does such a beast exist on a BCD436 - not sure) to determine LCNs. But I would pay attention to it during normal scanning as a trunked system.

It could be a mistake, or could be that nothing was ever actually verified. The system's site has a 25 mile (county) radius on it, when I'm sure it should be more like 2 mi or something like that. In the DB site info, it even lists it as analog, which suggests to me that originally it was an analog system and then at some point somebody probably detected DMR on it, submitted it to the DB (or reported it to the forum) and an admin then went in an attempted to "convert" it from an analog system to a digital system.

The only thing I would believe at this point is that there is DMR on one or more freqs. If you have a scanner that allows you to program a DMR trunked system and has "LCN Finder" functionality, program all four freqs in as a trunked system and run LCN finder. But beware - IF all four freqs are in use as a CAP+ system, you'll probably almost never hear the 3rd/4th LCNs become active just because there likely is not that much activity. Best bet is to monitor while scchool is in session, during the weekdays and see what you come up with.

If you had an RTL dongle and DSDplus, you could easily confirm whether or not it was CAP+.

I don't know if the BCD436HP will ever show CAP+ or CON+, but I'm thinking that if you want it to you have to program something other than OFT ---- probably as MotoTRBO, with all four freqeuencies added. But, of course, it isn't going to trunk until it knows the DCC (color code) for each freq and the proper LCN. That's why LCN Finder (if available) should be run on it.

Mike
 

mtindor

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The BCD436HP does indeed have an LCN finder and does display CAP/CON/DMR/DT3 modes.. (y)
Brent,

Do you know if it will display CAP/CON/DMR/DT3 if you have a CAP/CON/DT3 frequency programmed as DMR OFT ? Or does it have to be programmed as a MotoTRBO system to do that? I don't have a CAP+ system near by to test with.

m
 

trunker

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Tried programming as DMRTurbo and ran the LCN finder but got nothing (with no control channel) while receiving as conventional so pretty sure it's OFT.
It's just security so light activity all day long and yep, I do get activity on only 3 of 4 freqs. So far only 1 color code on all freqs.
 

u2brent

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Brent,

Do you know if it will display CAP/CON/DMR/DT3 if you have a CAP/CON/DT3 frequency programmed as DMR OFT ? Or does it have to be programmed as a MotoTRBO system to do that? I don't have a CAP+ system near by to test with.

m
I'm sure it shows in conventional scanning mode (just to help in determining how to properly program the system).. :unsure: I know you can see CAP/CON/DT3 if programmed as MotoTRBO (provided there's a signal) Not sure what displays if programmed as OFT. Currently not getting a single hit on any OFT that I have to confirm this... Stand by.. :whistle:
 

trunker

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Also, still trying to figure how a OFT system can have 4 freqs.
Programmed each freq as its own OFT system (site) and it scans the same way as one OFT system with 4 freqs.
 

mtindor

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Also, still trying to figure how a OFT system can have 4 freqs.
Programmed each freq as its own OFT system (site) and it scans the same way as a one OFT system with 4 freqs.
There would be no reason to even try programming four freqs into an OFT system. By it's nature it's One-Frequency Trunked. You would use that only for a DMR repeater with multiple talkgroups whereby you want to be able to lock out some talkgroups and listen to others.

The system in question likely is Cap+. Program it as a MotoTRBO system, with all four frequencies in there. Turn on ID Search. Set a Quick key for that newly created system. Then use LCN Finder to find the LCN order. While you are watching the system, pay attention to what is reported for the DCC (color code) because that will be important.

If it is a CAP+ system and not all four freqs are used, then LCN finder will never complete. If the system is CAP+ and during the course of running LCN Finder there isn't enough voice traffic to cycle through all of the frequencies, the LCN Finder will never complete. You really want to run LCN Finder at the absolute busiest time on the system, to ensure the best outcome with LCN Finder.

Mike
 

trunker

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There would be no reason to even try programming four freqs into an OFT system. By it's nature it's One-Frequency Trunked. You would use that only for a DMR repeater with multiple talkgroups whereby you want to be able to lock out some talkgroups and listen to others.

The system in question likely is Cap+. Program it as a MotoTRBO system, with all four frequencies in there. Turn on ID Search. Set a Quick key for that newly created system. Then use LCN Finder to find the LCN order. While you are watching the system, pay attention to what is reported for the DCC (color code) because that will be important.

If it is a CAP+ system and not all four freqs are used, then LCN finder will never complete. If the system is CAP+ and during the course of running LCN Finder there isn't enough voice traffic to cycle through all of the frequencies, the LCN Finder will never complete. You really want to run LCN Finder at the absolute busiest time on the system, to ensure the best outcome with LCN Finder.

Mike
Again, I get nothing programmed as DMRTurbo with the LCN finder all day long while still receiving transmissions as conventional.
 

u2brent

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Also, still trying to figure how a OFT system can have 4 freqs.
Programmed each freq as its own OFT system (site) and it scans the same way as one OFT system with 4 freqs.
I prefer putting each frequency in it's own site. I use this method because it's easier to determine which ones are active when playing back recordings on the 436 (as well as real time). But it will work with all lumped into one site.. I include the frequency in the site name so I see each one on playback.. if lumped together it's mucho more difficult.. and you'll not be able to tell which frequency is actually being used.. Also a big help if logging..

I just had a hit on a OFT system it said DMR, But I can't say if it would say the others or not because I don't have a CAP+ in range.. Nor have I any CON+ frequencies programmed that way either..

I just use logical site numbers (1,2,3) and also use the Color Code in the site name as well (If known).. See Screenshot.. :rolleyes:
75188
If you have an SDS and utilize the detailed view this method is not required :rolleyes:
 

u2brent

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There are DMR systems that say CAP+ but only use one frequency.. So.. Programming those as a OFT will work just fine for those instances.. They may even perform better that way on the scanner than as a MotoTRBO Trunk... :whistle:
The system in question may yield these results as well (even if there's 4 frequencies)
 

werinshades

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Also, still trying to figure how a OFT system can have 4 freqs.
Programmed each freq as its own OFT system (site) and it scans the same way as one OFT system with 4 freqs.
I program a few of my DMR OFT's like that. Under the Site, I add all the frequencies with their corresponding color code. At the Department level, I program the Channel (Ex Security) with the TGID. ID Search or ID Scan and it will receive just as well as the other methods mentioned.
 

werinshades

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There are DMR systems that say CAP+ but only use one frequency.. So.. Programming those as a OFT will work just fine for those instances.. They may even perform better that way on the scanner than as a MotoTRBO Trunk... :whistle:
I have a 2 frequency CAP+ system (Hospital) and decodes as advertised. I'm sure this is set up as to add capacity if needed at a later time. I'd recommend programming CAP+ systems as MotoTRBO, run LCN finder to confirm the frequency is LCN 1. Anything else, I'd start searching/checking FCC database for other frequencies.
 

trunker

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So, back to the original question, how do I know if the system is Cap+ or DMR?
Everyway I program it I see DMR in the display.
Probably a mistake in the database? (which says Cap+)
 

werinshades

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So, back to the original question, how do I know if the system is Cap+ or DMR?
Everyway I program it I see DMR in the display.
Probably a mistake in the database?
During Custom Search when it stops on the frequency, do you see DMR or CAP+? Note the Color Code if it's DMR, then program as DMR One Frequency. Or..Moto TRBO if CAP+ is in display.
 

bravo14

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If it shows DMR than its Conv not trunking. Is there a freq that shows 2 different users using same freq? Where I live at there is a resort suppose to be DMR but shows Cap+ and skywheel suppose to be DMR it shows Cap+. Now if it is DMR and has more than 1 Talkgroup I would make a OFT.
 

u2brent

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So, back to the original question, how do I know if the system is Cap+ or DMR?
Everyway I program it I see DMR in the display.
Probably a mistake in the database?
That is likely.. If DMR is the consistent type displayed. CAP+ is likely wrong or it changed since the DB entry was last updated.. Using DSD+ would tell you for sure..

Go with what works.. Update the database if verified..
 

werinshades

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That is likely.. If DMR is the consistent type displayed. CAP+ is likely wrong or it changed since the DB entry was last updated.. Using DSD+ would tell you for sure..

Go with what works.. Update the database if verified..
..as well as Custom Search..
 

werinshades

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Your biggest issue is the database entry vs. what it really is. You'll have to do some detective work, submit the corrections to the database so others will have the correct information.
 

trunker

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I have multiple users on multiple freqs (programmed as OFT system with 4 freqs).
Scans just like conventional, but with IDs of course.
 
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